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用CT的标准去衡量Yahoo，信息量还是不够丰富。我觉得这个问题并不是很重要，反正我自己都不看新浪的首页-。-
需要的人会看的，而且这种人在中国很多很多……

On 5/27/08, Xia Qingran <qingran在zeuux.org> wrote:
>
> 原文见：
>
> http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/
>
>
> Why do most Chinese sites look like crap? May 26th, 2008 · 13 Comments<http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comments>
>
> [I wish this post contained all sorts of "a-ha!" insights. Instead, I hope
> it simply frames some questions that I find interesting].
>
> Whenever I show Chinese websites to American friends who don't speak
> Chinese, the friends universally have the same reaction — "Wow! That site
> sure is crappy-looking! Guess those guys haven't learned how to design a
> good website yet, huh?"
>
> I made the same mistake myself when I moved to Beijing 4 years ago, fresh
> from the "cutting-edge" of web design in the Bay Area. "Surely," I thought,
> "my superior design sensibility is a key ingredient to why I'll be
> successful building B2C websites in China!"
>
> Boy, was I wrong.
>
> In case you don't know what I'm talking about, look at the home page of
> China's most-popular website (all of these screen shots are a bit old, but
> things haven't changed much). You can click on the image to see it in
> detail.
>
>
> <http://www.melcherruwart.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/sina-home-page.jpg>
>
> Above is the home page of Sina.com, showing just what you can see "above
> the fold" (in other words, without scrolling down).
>
> Now, here's the above-the-fold home page of my favorite American news site:
>
>
> <http://www.melcherruwart.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/ny-times-home-page.jpg>
>
> For those of you who might argue that Sina is a "portal" and not really a
> news site, here's the above-the-fold home page of most popular portal site
> in the US:
>
>
> <http://www.melcherruwart.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/yahoo-home-page.jpg>
>
> In addition to preferring higher information density per square inch,
> Chinese readers also seem to prefer higher density per page view. Once
> again, here's the home page of Yahoo, showing the entire home page.
>
>
> <http://www.melcherruwart.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/yahoo-home-page-long.jpg>
>
> Here's the full-length home page of Sina.com, from the same day:
>
>
> <http://www.melcherruwart.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/sina-home-page-long.jpg>
>
> In case my point isn't clear, below I've placed the full-length web pages
> of the three sites side-by-side, to scale:
>
>
> <http://www.melcherruwart.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/yahoo-vs-nyt-vs-sina.jpg>
>
> Most Americans are by now nodding their heads: "Yep. Love those US sites.
> Much more advanced. Clean, simple design. Not cluttered. Guess those Chinese
> guys will figure that out sooner or later."
>
> What's fascinating is that my Chinese friends have a very different take on
> the US sites: "They look skimpy, and empty. Where's all the content?? The
> home page is just navigation."
>
> After talking about this issue with many friends, it appears that Chinese
> and American (I won't say "Western" since I don't know much about Europeans)
> look at/read websites in very different ways. [To forestall critics, when I
> say "Americans" I mean native English speakers and readers who live in
> America, even though there are obviously many Americans who don't speak
> English natively].
>
> While it's clear that both peoples "scan," and then only sometimes "read",
> the way they scan is very different. Chinese people strongly prefer a
> density that is far beyond what most Americans can tolerate. In addition,
> Chinese people seem to be scanning for keywords (or more precisely
> "key-characters"), while Americans like to read "headlines" (aka short pithy
> phrases) and look at arresting photos.
>
> So here's my question: "Do Chinese online users and American online users
> scan/read web pages differently? if so, why? What does that mean for online
> business?"
>
> It turns out that no one seems to know the answer. I asked Jakob Nielsen<http://www.useit.com/>,
> the famous web usability expert, if he knew of any research on this topic.
> His simple answer: "No." He suggested I attend his upcoming usability
> workshop, which looks cool but is (a) beyond my price point and (b)
> potentially not relevant for the Chinese market (which is the whole point of
> this post).
>
> I can't find anyone, anywhere, who is researching this question. If you
> know someone, please let me know.
>
> I would LOVE to have someone do real research into this issue, using the
> latest eye-tracking technology. I might even have (gasp!) a shoestring
> budget to fund this. I've approached a friend at the Chinese Central Arts
> University, but they don't have the technology. Any takers??
>
> In the meantime, some of my own thoughts on this issue.
>
> First, I decided to compare newspaper front pages in China and the US. i
> figured that this comparison would yield the same enormous differences in
> information density. I remembered that Chinese newspapers from years ago
> were really dense visually. Much to my surprise, though, there are no longer
> vast differences between the layout and visual density of the top Beijing
> newspapers and English-language newspapers in New York.
>
> I found this fascinating. Why are the designs of the front pages of the
> major daily newspapers converging, while the website home pages are not?
> Does this mean that Chinese newspapers are more, or less, in touch with how
> their readers want to read?
>
> Then I started to think about what might explain the differences online,
> since they seem to exist only there. Said another way, are there unique
> "online" circumstances in China that might be influencing home page design?
>
> I think the answer is yes.
>
> In the US, online advertising is (mostly) sold by "page view". For example,
> an advertiser buys a certain amount of page views over time. In China, most
> online advertising is still sold by time-period, as in "buy an ad on the
> home page for one month."
>
> As I thought it through, I realized that these different pricing
> methodologies created different incentives. In the US, you want "more page
> views per visit", because that's how you create advertising inventory. In
> China, you create more advertising inventory by making your home page
> longer.
>
> Is this the explanation?? If so, does this mean that when (if?) China moves
> to a per-impression model, home pages will get shorter and less dense? Or
> has the online audience in China become accustomed to super-high density? If
> so, then how come newspapers are no longer as dense as they were?
>
> By now I hope you're starting to find these questions as interesting as I
> find them. I'd love to hear what you think!
>
> *Tags:* Chinese internet explained<http://www.melcherruwart.com/category/chinese-internet-explained/>
> 13 responses so far ↓
>
>    -
>
>    1<http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-142>
>    *John <http://www.sinosplice.com/life/> *// May 26, 2008 at 7:53 pm
>
>    It is an interesting question. You're right that you aren't the first
>    to notice this, but given the keywords involved, it's a bit problematic to
>    search for the topic. Here are a few other commentaries:
>
>    http://www.churbuck.com/wordpress/?p=540
>
>    http://reganmian.net/blog/2007/09/30/website-design-in-china/
>
>    http://www.virtual-china.org/2006/03/30/aesthetics-of-abundance/
>    -
>
>    2<http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-148>
>    *Florian Pihs <http://longmarch.chinalytics.com/> *// May 27, 2008 at
>    12:17 am
>
>    Thanks Melcher. Interesting post. I have asked myself the same
>    questions hundreds of times. While we see Chinese users engage with websites
>    differently that their western counterparts, basic web design principles
>    remain intact (but are largely ignored by most local sites) e.g. there is no
>    engagement after the 3rd screen, but pages are still 5-6 screens long. Blame
>    it on Sina or the lack of usability research.
>    -
>
>    3<http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-155>
>    *Fons Tuinstra <http://www.chinaherald.net/> *// May 27, 2008 at 4:45
>    am
>
>    I think you are touching here on a key discussion: it is about what
>    your readers want, how to they absorb their information and what is the best
>    way to get a message across.
>    I do not have a clear answer, but I had some weeks ago an interesting
>    discussion with the chief-editor of the website of the largest broadsheet in
>    Poland:
>
>    http://witeam.blogspot.com/2008/04/observation-scrolling-no-longer-problem.html
>    They had done some research, eye-tracking stuff, and discovered that
>    some of the standard assumption on how people read a website had change over
>    the years. Scrolling (a nono in traditional webdesign) did not seem to be a
>    problem and people did not read anymore from the top-left corner downwards.
>    Our unproven assumption was then that this might be a generational
>    transition where an increasing number of readers did not have been
>    conditioned to read traditional newspapers anymore, but were open for
>    different ways of reading.
>    In China, where internet users are relative young and mostly not
>    trained (old) newspaper readers the old way of conditioning reading habits
>    might never have had a root to start with.
>    -
>
>    4<http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-156>
>    *tmelcher *// May 27, 2008 at 5:58 am
>
>    Thanks very much for these great comments, and links to articles on the
>    same subject. I'd love to find more people interested in this subject!
>    -
>
>    5<http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-157>
>    *Paul Denlinger <http://www.chinavortex.com/> *// May 27, 2008 at 8:51
>    am
>
>    Here is my guess.
>    I think that Sina, Sohu and Netease still have to accomodate many new
>    users, and they are not comfortable clicking through to new pages or
>    inputting Chinese into search boxes. Instead, they prefer to click directly
>    on text links of what they want to read. This forces as much content as
>    possible up to the top-level of the major websites.
>    >From an aesthetics point of view, it is not pretty. But it works in
>    China.
>    -
>
>    6<http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-158>
>    *Kaiser Kuo <http://digitalwatch.ogilvy.com.cn/en> *// May 27, 2008 at
>    9:04 am
>
>    When I was editor-in-chief of a site here in China back in 1999, I
>    hired a Danish Web designer who built what I thought was a nice, clean,
>    elegant interface–which, of course, elicited confused "where's the content?"
>    from our Chinese staff. Eric Rosenblum, who was COO of the company, was
>    initially with me on the design issue, having a preference for clean. But
>    then a friend of his straightened him out. "Look at the Chinese retail
>    experience," Eric relayed to me. "Chinese shoppers want abundance, things
>    falling off the shells and piled up in the aisles. It makes it feel like
>    there's a sale on." He suggested that this experience preference translates
>    well onto the web as well. He may be right! Anyway, a heat mapping study
>    would be great. I have a hunch — totally unsupported, of course — that when
>    native readers of Chinese take in text, it's in a very different way than
>    English readers do, and there's simply more tolerance for what English
>    readers see as clutter.
>    -
>
>    7<http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-159>
>    *Thijs *// May 27, 2008 at 9:36 am
>
>    I've looked into this only on the surface level; and if you look at
>    pageview time, the chinese websites have much higher values. I've also seen
>    some heatmapping done before and people have issues "finding" information,
>    which may contribute to the viewing time. Whether or not this leads to a
>    more "pleasing" experience, I would not be able to say. I think part of it
>    is just, what people are used to (habits) and not what would be the best
>    design.
>    -
>
>    8<http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-162>
>    *Gemme <http://www.chinasnippets.com/> *// May 27, 2008 at 10:27 am
>
>    A user behavior study would indeed be great. Like many other commenters
>    I have struggled with the concept behind all the cluttered pages. Especially
>    in cases that I had to advice clients on this. Do we go Chinese or do we go
>    Western.
>
>    My take is that it will depend on the kind of website what will be the
>    best. Is it information, is it e-commerce, is it entertainment or else. My
>    hunch is it that it will also change over time.
>
>    One reason, like you mentioned, would be that the dated "advertising
>    per day" model (no incentive to change as a longer page can carry more ads)
>    will be replaced with more mature models that actually convert.
>    Another reason would be the evolvement of design, there's aready a lot
>    of the so called web 2.0 design happening.
>
>    I asked a company that actually does user behavior and eye tracking
>    testing but for now their Chinese office doesn' do this yet as it's very
>    expensive and clients are'nt yet at the stage that they see the benefit.
>
>    I only know of one Chinese eyetracking study but this once was focused
>    on the difference of behavior on Baidu and Google, see
>    http://www.enquiroresearch.com/chinese-search-engine-engagement.aspx .
>    Very intersting but unfortunately the Baidu and Google homepages have a
>    rather clean lay out so they may not help too much here.
>    -
>
>    9<http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-166>
>    *Paul Denlinger <http://www.chinavortex.com/> *// May 27, 2008 at 12:29
>    pm
>
>    It would be interesting to study how eye-tracking behavior works
>    differently in east and west. If you look at magazine layouts in Taiwan,
>    Japan and Korea, you will see the same in your face cluttered layouts.
>    -
>
>    10<http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-167>
>    *cerebus <http://aityt.blogspot.com/> *// May 27, 2008 at 12:40 pm
>
>    I've always wondered why Chinese websites always open links in a new
>    window (unless you specify tabs in your browser). My theory is that one
>    reason for the clutter is that there isn't a culture of consumer complaints
>    in China: no proper feedback mechanism. So although people might find it
>    annoying, they'll be hard-pressed to actually complain. It always seems to
>    me Chinese websites just aren't considerate, and want to take over your
>    whole screen and browser with floating flash ads and pop-ups. TV does the
>    same: it's not uncommon to see the same ad three or four times in a row. I
>    don't think arguments about Chinese consumer expectations hold water: more
>    likely Chinese advertiser expectations are to blame. The old story: you only
>    need to sell something once to every Chinese person and you'll be a
>    millionaire. Who cares if some people are annoyed? They're not going to
>    complain anyway.
>
>    (Please don't attack the obvious generalizations in this opinion.
>    Rather address the questions. I thank you in advance.)
>    -
>
>    11<http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-173>
>    *tmelcher *// May 27, 2008 at 1:58 pm
>
>    Cerebus,
>
>    Thanks for the comment. Too bad your blog is blocked from Beijing!
>
>    I don't quite agree about the culture of no consumer complaints here. I
>    hear Chinese colleagues bitching about consumer experiences all the time,
>    and the BBSes are full of horror stories. And lately more companies seem to
>    be taking notice.
>
>    Based on talking with Chinese friends, it seems they really do prefer
>    highly-dense presentation. Other posters here have called it a "theory of
>    abundance", which is an interesting metaphor.
>
>    Bottom line is that I don't know. But I've seen too many foreign web
>    companies come to China and make mistakes from day one by assuming "good web
>    design" is global…
>
>    Thanks again!
>    -
>
>    12<http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-174>
>    *Robert Ness <http://www.jobdou.com/> *// May 27, 2008 at 2:02 pm
>
>    I think you are right on the money with the advertising argument. It
>    all comes down to a sales person saying–"your ad gets on the front page of
>    Sina".
>
>    Let's not forget about the simple power of doing things the way people
>    have been doing it before you. Sina was one of the first big internet
>    successes in China, so most new websites aren't going to question the wisdom
>    of their UI design. And when your a media buyer who is accountable to a
>    boss, which is easier to say if things don't go well, "I placed the ad on
>    the front page of Sina!" or "I placed the ad on an archived page that gets
>    high page views from search engine users searching for relevant keywords!"
>
>    Let's avoid the trap of explaining things with culture instead of
>    explicit motivations.
>    -
>
>    13<http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-178>
>    *tmelcher *// May 27, 2008 at 2:28 pm
>
>    Robert,
>
>    I love what you wrote: "avoid the trap of explaining things with
>    culture instead of explicit motivations". sounds like the inside of a
>    fortune cookie. Seriously. I've also thought that basic motivations (such as
>    makin' money) usually trump more-subtle ones…
>
>
> --
> 夏清然
> Xia Qingranqingran在zeuux.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> zeuux-universe mailing list
> zeuux-universe在zeuux.org
> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>
> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> http://www.zeuux.org
>



-- 
Julien, GONG Min
clie.com.cn/blog

Google Talk: Julien.Gong在gmail.com
MSN: gongmin在x263.net
Sina UC: 103327
Tel: +8610 6267 5933
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网页价值观差异，没有什么问题。他口中的crap在我们眼中并不是crap，就这么简单。他要是看到QQ的用户行为的话，肯定会疯掉的~~

2008/5/27 Julien GONG Min (Gmail) <julien.gong at gmail.com>:
> 用CT的标准去衡量Yahoo，信息量还是不够丰富。我觉得这个问题并不是很重要，反正我自己都不看新浪的首页-。-
> 需要的人会看的，而且这种人在中国很多很多……
>
> On 5/27/08, Xia Qingran <qingran at zeuux.org> wrote:
>>
>> 原文见：
>>
>> http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/
>>
>>
>> Why do most Chinese sites look like crap?
>>
>> May 26th, 2008 · 13 Comments
>>
>> [I wish this post contained all sorts of "a-ha!" insights. Instead, I hope
>> it simply frames some questions that I find interesting].
>>
>> Whenever I show Chinese websites to American friends who don't speak
>> Chinese, the friends universally have the same reaction — "Wow! That site
>> sure is crappy-looking! Guess those guys haven't learned how to design a
>> good website yet, huh?"
>>
>> I made the same mistake myself when I moved to Beijing 4 years ago, fresh
>> from the "cutting-edge" of web design in the Bay Area. "Surely," I thought,
>> "my superior design sensibility is a key ingredient to why I'll be
>> successful building B2C websites in China!"
>>
>> Boy, was I wrong.
>>
>> In case you don't know what I'm talking about, look at the home page of
>> China's most-popular website (all of these screen shots are a bit old, but
>> things haven't changed much). You can click on the image to see it in
>> detail.
>>
>> Above is the home page of Sina.com, showing just what you can see "above
>> the fold" (in other words, without scrolling down).
>>
>> Now, here's the above-the-fold home page of my favorite American news
>> site:
>>
>> For those of you who might argue that Sina is a "portal" and not really a
>> news site, here's the above-the-fold home page of most popular portal site
>> in the US:
>>
>> In addition to preferring higher information density per square inch,
>> Chinese readers also seem to prefer higher density per page view. Once
>> again, here's the home page of Yahoo, showing the entire home page.
>>
>> Here's the full-length home page of Sina.com, from the same day:
>>
>> In case my point isn't clear, below I've placed the full-length web pages
>> of the three sites side-by-side, to scale:
>>
>> Most Americans are by now nodding their heads: "Yep. Love those US sites.
>> Much more advanced. Clean, simple design. Not cluttered. Guess those Chinese
>> guys will figure that out sooner or later."
>>
>> What's fascinating is that my Chinese friends have a very different take
>> on the US sites: "They look skimpy, and empty. Where's all the content?? The
>> home page is just navigation."
>>
>> After talking about this issue with many friends, it appears that Chinese
>> and American (I won't say "Western" since I don't know much about Europeans)
>> look at/read websites in very different ways. [To forestall critics, when I
>> say "Americans" I mean native English speakers and readers who live in
>> America, even though there are obviously many Americans who don't speak
>> English natively].
>>
>> While it's clear that both peoples "scan," and then only sometimes "read",
>> the way they scan is very different. Chinese people strongly prefer a
>> density that is far beyond what most Americans can tolerate. In addition,
>> Chinese people seem to be scanning for keywords (or more precisely
>> "key-characters"), while Americans like to read "headlines" (aka short pithy
>> phrases) and look at arresting photos.
>>
>> So here's my question: "Do Chinese online users and American online users
>> scan/read web pages differently? if so, why? What does that mean for online
>> business?"
>>
>> It turns out that no one seems to know the answer. I asked Jakob Nielsen,
>> the famous web usability expert, if he knew of any research on this topic.
>> His simple answer: "No." He suggested I attend his upcoming usability
>> workshop, which looks cool but is (a) beyond my price point and (b)
>> potentially not relevant for the Chinese market (which is the whole point of
>> this post).
>>
>> I can't find anyone, anywhere, who is researching this question. If you
>> know someone, please let me know.
>>
>> I would LOVE to have someone do real research into this issue, using the
>> latest eye-tracking technology. I might even have (gasp!) a shoestring
>> budget to fund this. I've approached a friend at the Chinese Central Arts
>> University, but they don't have the technology. Any takers??
>>
>> In the meantime, some of my own thoughts on this issue.
>>
>> First, I decided to compare newspaper front pages in China and the US. i
>> figured that this comparison would yield the same enormous differences in
>> information density. I remembered that Chinese newspapers from years ago
>> were really dense visually. Much to my surprise, though, there are no longer
>> vast differences between the layout and visual density of the top Beijing
>> newspapers and English-language newspapers in New York.
>>
>> I found this fascinating. Why are the designs of the front pages of the
>> major daily newspapers converging, while the website home pages are not?
>> Does this mean that Chinese newspapers are more, or less, in touch with how
>> their readers want to read?
>>
>> Then I started to think about what might explain the differences online,
>> since they seem to exist only there. Said another way, are there unique
>> "online" circumstances in China that might be influencing home page design?
>>
>> I think the answer is yes.
>>
>> In the US, online advertising is (mostly) sold by "page view". For
>> example, an advertiser buys a certain amount of page views over time. In
>> China, most online advertising is still sold by time-period, as in "buy an
>> ad on the home page for one month."
>>
>> As I thought it through, I realized that these different pricing
>> methodologies created different incentives. In the US, you want "more page
>> views per visit", because that's how you create advertising inventory. In
>> China, you create more advertising inventory by making your home page
>> longer.
>>
>> Is this the explanation?? If so, does this mean that when (if?) China
>> moves to a per-impression model, home pages will get shorter and less dense?
>> Or has the online audience in China become accustomed to super-high density?
>> If so, then how come newspapers are no longer as dense as they were?
>>
>> By now I hope you're starting to find these questions as interesting as I
>> find them. I'd love to hear what you think!
>>
>> Tags: Chinese internet explained
>>
>> 13 responses so far ↓
>>
>> 1 John // May 26, 2008 at 7:53 pm
>>
>> It is an interesting question. You're right that you aren't the first to
>> notice this, but given the keywords involved, it's a bit problematic to
>> search for the topic. Here are a few other commentaries:
>>
>> http://www.churbuck.com/wordpress/?p=540
>>
>> http://reganmian.net/blog/2007/09/30/website-design-in-china/
>>
>> http://www.virtual-china.org/2006/03/30/aesthetics-of-abundance/
>>
>> 2 Florian Pihs // May 27, 2008 at 12:17 am
>>
>> Thanks Melcher. Interesting post. I have asked myself the same questions
>> hundreds of times. While we see Chinese users engage with websites
>> differently that their western counterparts, basic web design principles
>> remain intact (but are largely ignored by most local sites) e.g. there is no
>> engagement after the 3rd screen, but pages are still 5-6 screens long. Blame
>> it on Sina or the lack of usability research.
>>
>> 3 Fons Tuinstra // May 27, 2008 at 4:45 am
>>
>> I think you are touching here on a key discussion: it is about what your
>> readers want, how to they absorb their information and what is the best way
>> to get a message across.
>> I do not have a clear answer, but I had some weeks ago an interesting
>> discussion with the chief-editor of the website of the largest broadsheet in
>> Poland:
>>
>> http://witeam.blogspot.com/2008/04/observation-scrolling-no-longer-problem.html
>> They had done some research, eye-tracking stuff, and discovered that some
>> of the standard assumption on how people read a website had change over the
>> years. Scrolling (a nono in traditional webdesign) did not seem to be a
>> problem and people did not read anymore from the top-left corner downwards.
>> Our unproven assumption was then that this might be a generational
>> transition where an increasing number of readers did not have been
>> conditioned to read traditional newspapers anymore, but were open for
>> different ways of reading.
>> In China, where internet users are relative young and mostly not trained
>> (old) newspaper readers the old way of conditioning reading habits might
>> never have had a root to start with.
>>
>> 4 tmelcher // May 27, 2008 at 5:58 am
>>
>> Thanks very much for these great comments, and links to articles on the
>> same subject. I'd love to find more people interested in this subject!
>>
>> 5 Paul Denlinger // May 27, 2008 at 8:51 am
>>
>> Here is my guess.
>> I think that Sina, Sohu and Netease still have to accomodate many new
>> users, and they are not comfortable clicking through to new pages or
>> inputting Chinese into search boxes. Instead, they prefer to click directly
>> on text links of what they want to read. This forces as much content as
>> possible up to the top-level of the major websites.
>> >From an aesthetics point of view, it is not pretty. But it works in
>> China.
>>
>> 6 Kaiser Kuo // May 27, 2008 at 9:04 am
>>
>> When I was editor-in-chief of a site here in China back in 1999, I hired a
>> Danish Web designer who built what I thought was a nice, clean, elegant
>> interface–which, of course, elicited confused "where's the content?" from
>> our Chinese staff. Eric Rosenblum, who was COO of the company, was initially
>> with me on the design issue, having a preference for clean. But then a
>> friend of his straightened him out. "Look at the Chinese retail experience,"
>> Eric relayed to me. "Chinese shoppers want abundance, things falling off the
>> shells and piled up in the aisles. It makes it feel like there's a sale on."
>> He suggested that this experience preference translates well onto the web as
>> well. He may be right! Anyway, a heat mapping study would be great. I have a
>> hunch — totally unsupported, of course — that when native readers of Chinese
>> take in text, it's in a very different way than English readers do, and
>> there's simply more tolerance for what English readers see as clutter.
>>
>> 7 Thijs // May 27, 2008 at 9:36 am
>>
>> I've looked into this only on the surface level; and if you look at
>> pageview time, the chinese websites have much higher values. I've also seen
>> some heatmapping done before and people have issues "finding" information,
>> which may contribute to the viewing time. Whether or not this leads to a
>> more "pleasing" experience, I would not be able to say. I think part of it
>> is just, what people are used to (habits) and not what would be the best
>> design.
>>
>> 8 Gemme // May 27, 2008 at 10:27 am
>>
>> A user behavior study would indeed be great. Like many other commenters I
>> have struggled with the concept behind all the cluttered pages. Especially
>> in cases that I had to advice clients on this. Do we go Chinese or do we go
>> Western.
>>
>> My take is that it will depend on the kind of website what will be the
>> best. Is it information, is it e-commerce, is it entertainment or else. My
>> hunch is it that it will also change over time.
>>
>> One reason, like you mentioned, would be that the dated "advertising per
>> day" model (no incentive to change as a longer page can carry more ads) will
>> be replaced with more mature models that actually convert.
>> Another reason would be the evolvement of design, there's aready a lot of
>> the so called web 2.0 design happening.
>>
>> I asked a company that actually does user behavior and eye tracking
>> testing but for now their Chinese office doesn' do this yet as it's very
>> expensive and clients are'nt yet at the stage that they see the benefit.
>>
>> I only know of one Chinese eyetracking study but this once was focused on
>> the difference of behavior on Baidu and Google, see
>> http://www.enquiroresearch.com/chinese-search-engine-engagement.aspx .
>> Very intersting but unfortunately the Baidu and Google homepages have a
>> rather clean lay out so they may not help too much here.
>>
>> 9 Paul Denlinger // May 27, 2008 at 12:29 pm
>>
>> It would be interesting to study how eye-tracking behavior works
>> differently in east and west. If you look at magazine layouts in Taiwan,
>> Japan and Korea, you will see the same in your face cluttered layouts.
>>
>> 10 cerebus // May 27, 2008 at 12:40 pm
>>
>> I've always wondered why Chinese websites always open links in a new
>> window (unless you specify tabs in your browser). My theory is that one
>> reason for the clutter is that there isn't a culture of consumer complaints
>> in China: no proper feedback mechanism. So although people might find it
>> annoying, they'll be hard-pressed to actually complain. It always seems to
>> me Chinese websites just aren't considerate, and want to take over your
>> whole screen and browser with floating flash ads and pop-ups. TV does the
>> same: it's not uncommon to see the same ad three or four times in a row. I
>> don't think arguments about Chinese consumer expectations hold water: more
>> likely Chinese advertiser expectations are to blame. The old story: you only
>> need to sell something once to every Chinese person and you'll be a
>> millionaire. Who cares if some people are annoyed? They're not going to
>> complain anyway.
>>
>> (Please don't attack the obvious generalizations in this opinion. Rather
>> address the questions. I thank you in advance.)
>>
>> 11 tmelcher // May 27, 2008 at 1:58 pm
>>
>> Cerebus,
>>
>> Thanks for the comment. Too bad your blog is blocked from Beijing!
>>
>> I don't quite agree about the culture of no consumer complaints here. I
>> hear Chinese colleagues bitching about consumer experiences all the time,
>> and the BBSes are full of horror stories. And lately more companies seem to
>> be taking notice.
>>
>> Based on talking with Chinese friends, it seems they really do prefer
>> highly-dense presentation. Other posters here have called it a "theory of
>> abundance", which is an interesting metaphor.
>>
>> Bottom line is that I don't know. But I've seen too many foreign web
>> companies come to China and make mistakes from day one by assuming "good web
>> design" is global…
>>
>> Thanks again!
>>
>> 12 Robert Ness // May 27, 2008 at 2:02 pm
>>
>> I think you are right on the money with the advertising argument. It all
>> comes down to a sales person saying–"your ad gets on the front page of
>> Sina".
>>
>> Let's not forget about the simple power of doing things the way people
>> have been doing it before you. Sina was one of the first big internet
>> successes in China, so most new websites aren't going to question the wisdom
>> of their UI design. And when your a media buyer who is accountable to a
>> boss, which is easier to say if things don't go well, "I placed the ad on
>> the front page of Sina!" or "I placed the ad on an archived page that gets
>> high page views from search engine users searching for relevant keywords!"
>>
>> Let's avoid the trap of explaining things with culture instead of explicit
>> motivations.
>>
>> 13 tmelcher // May 27, 2008 at 2:28 pm
>>
>> Robert,
>>
>> I love what you wrote: "avoid the trap of explaining things with culture
>> instead of explicit motivations". sounds like the inside of a fortune
>> cookie. Seriously. I've also thought that basic motivations (such as makin'
>> money) usually trump more-subtle ones…
>>
>> --
>> 夏清然
>> Xia Qingran
>> qingran at zeuux.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> zeuux-universe mailing list
>> zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
>> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>>
>> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
>> http://www.zeuux.org
>
>
>
> --
> Julien, GONG Min
> clie.com.cn/blog
>
> Google Talk: Julien.Gong at gmail.com
> MSN: gongmin at x263.net
> Sina UC: 103327
> Tel: +8610 6267 5933
> _______________________________________________
> zeuux-universe mailing list
> zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>
> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> http://www.zeuux.org
>



-- 
Best Regards
Harry Li

Harry Li wrote:
> 网页价值观差异，没有什么问题。他口中的crap在我们眼中并不是crap，就这么简单。
> 他要是看到QQ的用户行为的话，肯定会疯掉的~~
>   
哈，这句话比较经典:D
> 2008/5/27 Julien GONG Min (Gmail) <julien.gong at gmail.com>:
>   
>> 用CT的标准去衡量Yahoo，信息量还是不够丰富。我觉得这个问题并不是很重要，反正我自己都不看新浪的首页-。-
>> 需要的人会看的，而且这种人在中国很多很多……
>>
>> On 5/27/08, Xia Qingran <qingran at zeuux.org> wrote:
>>     
>>> 原文见：
>>>
>>> http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/
>>>
>>>
>>> Why do most Chinese sites look like crap?
>>>
>>> May 26th, 2008 · 13 Comments
>>>
>>> [I wish this post contained all sorts of "a-ha!" insights. Instead, I hope
>>> it simply frames some questions that I find interesting].
>>>
>>> Whenever I show Chinese websites to American friends who don't speak
>>> Chinese, the friends universally have the same reaction — "Wow! That site
>>> sure is crappy-looking! Guess those guys haven't learned how to design a
>>> good website yet, huh?"
>>>
>>> I made the same mistake myself when I moved to Beijing 4 years ago, fresh
>>> from the "cutting-edge" of web design in the Bay Area. "Surely," I thought,
>>> "my superior design sensibility is a key ingredient to why I'll be
>>> successful building B2C websites in China!"
>>>
>>> Boy, was I wrong.
>>>
>>> In case you don't know what I'm talking about, look at the home page of
>>> China's most-popular website (all of these screen shots are a bit old, but
>>> things haven't changed much). You can click on the image to see it in
>>> detail.
>>>
>>> Above is the home page of Sina.com, showing just what you can see "above
>>> the fold" (in other words, without scrolling down).
>>>
>>> Now, here's the above-the-fold home page of my favorite American news
>>> site:
>>>
>>> For those of you who might argue that Sina is a "portal" and not really a
>>> news site, here's the above-the-fold home page of most popular portal site
>>> in the US:
>>>
>>> In addition to preferring higher information density per square inch,
>>> Chinese readers also seem to prefer higher density per page view. Once
>>> again, here's the home page of Yahoo, showing the entire home page.
>>>
>>> Here's the full-length home page of Sina.com, from the same day:
>>>
>>> In case my point isn't clear, below I've placed the full-length web pages
>>> of the three sites side-by-side, to scale:
>>>
>>> Most Americans are by now nodding their heads: "Yep. Love those US sites.
>>> Much more advanced. Clean, simple design. Not cluttered. Guess those Chinese
>>> guys will figure that out sooner or later."
>>>
>>> What's fascinating is that my Chinese friends have a very different take
>>> on the US sites: "They look skimpy, and empty. Where's all the content?? The
>>> home page is just navigation."
>>>
>>> After talking about this issue with many friends, it appears that Chinese
>>> and American (I won't say "Western" since I don't know much about Europeans)
>>> look at/read websites in very different ways. [To forestall critics, when I
>>> say "Americans" I mean native English speakers and readers who live in
>>> America, even though there are obviously many Americans who don't speak
>>> English natively].
>>>
>>> While it's clear that both peoples "scan," and then only sometimes "read",
>>> the way they scan is very different. Chinese people strongly prefer a
>>> density that is far beyond what most Americans can tolerate. In addition,
>>> Chinese people seem to be scanning for keywords (or more precisely
>>> "key-characters"), while Americans like to read "headlines" (aka short pithy
>>> phrases) and look at arresting photos.
>>>
>>> So here's my question: "Do Chinese online users and American online users
>>> scan/read web pages differently? if so, why? What does that mean for online
>>> business?"
>>>
>>> It turns out that no one seems to know the answer. I asked Jakob Nielsen,
>>> the famous web usability expert, if he knew of any research on this topic.
>>> His simple answer: "No." He suggested I attend his upcoming usability
>>> workshop, which looks cool but is (a) beyond my price point and (b)
>>> potentially not relevant for the Chinese market (which is the whole point of
>>> this post).
>>>
>>> I can't find anyone, anywhere, who is researching this question. If you
>>> know someone, please let me know.
>>>
>>> I would LOVE to have someone do real research into this issue, using the
>>> latest eye-tracking technology. I might even have (gasp!) a shoestring
>>> budget to fund this. I've approached a friend at the Chinese Central Arts
>>> University, but they don't have the technology. Any takers??
>>>
>>> In the meantime, some of my own thoughts on this issue.
>>>
>>> First, I decided to compare newspaper front pages in China and the US. i
>>> figured that this comparison would yield the same enormous differences in
>>> information density. I remembered that Chinese newspapers from years ago
>>> were really dense visually. Much to my surprise, though, there are no longer
>>> vast differences between the layout and visual density of the top Beijing
>>> newspapers and English-language newspapers in New York.
>>>
>>> I found this fascinating. Why are the designs of the front pages of the
>>> major daily newspapers converging, while the website home pages are not?
>>> Does this mean that Chinese newspapers are more, or less, in touch with how
>>> their readers want to read?
>>>
>>> Then I started to think about what might explain the differences online,
>>> since they seem to exist only there. Said another way, are there unique
>>> "online" circumstances in China that might be influencing home page design?
>>>
>>> I think the answer is yes.
>>>
>>> In the US, online advertising is (mostly) sold by "page view". For
>>> example, an advertiser buys a certain amount of page views over time. In
>>> China, most online advertising is still sold by time-period, as in "buy an
>>> ad on the home page for one month."
>>>
>>> As I thought it through, I realized that these different pricing
>>> methodologies created different incentives. In the US, you want "more page
>>> views per visit", because that's how you create advertising inventory. In
>>> China, you create more advertising inventory by making your home page
>>> longer.
>>>
>>> Is this the explanation?? If so, does this mean that when (if?) China
>>> moves to a per-impression model, home pages will get shorter and less dense?
>>> Or has the online audience in China become accustomed to super-high density?
>>> If so, then how come newspapers are no longer as dense as they were?
>>>
>>> By now I hope you're starting to find these questions as interesting as I
>>> find them. I'd love to hear what you think!
>>>
>>> Tags: Chinese internet explained
>>>
>>> 13 responses so far ↓
>>>
>>> 1 John // May 26, 2008 at 7:53 pm
>>>
>>> It is an interesting question. You're right that you aren't the first to
>>> notice this, but given the keywords involved, it's a bit problematic to
>>> search for the topic. Here are a few other commentaries:
>>>
>>> http://www.churbuck.com/wordpress/?p=540
>>>
>>> http://reganmian.net/blog/2007/09/30/website-design-in-china/
>>>
>>> http://www.virtual-china.org/2006/03/30/aesthetics-of-abundance/
>>>
>>> 2 Florian Pihs // May 27, 2008 at 12:17 am
>>>
>>> Thanks Melcher. Interesting post. I have asked myself the same questions
>>> hundreds of times. While we see Chinese users engage with websites
>>> differently that their western counterparts, basic web design principles
>>> remain intact (but are largely ignored by most local sites) e.g. there is no
>>> engagement after the 3rd screen, but pages are still 5-6 screens long. Blame
>>> it on Sina or the lack of usability research.
>>>
>>> 3 Fons Tuinstra // May 27, 2008 at 4:45 am
>>>
>>> I think you are touching here on a key discussion: it is about what your
>>> readers want, how to they absorb their information and what is the best way
>>> to get a message across.
>>> I do not have a clear answer, but I had some weeks ago an interesting
>>> discussion with the chief-editor of the website of the largest broadsheet in
>>> Poland:
>>>
>>> http://witeam.blogspot.com/2008/04/observation-scrolling-no-longer-problem.html
>>> They had done some research, eye-tracking stuff, and discovered that some
>>> of the standard assumption on how people read a website had change over the
>>> years. Scrolling (a nono in traditional webdesign) did not seem to be a
>>> problem and people did not read anymore from the top-left corner downwards.
>>> Our unproven assumption was then that this might be a generational
>>> transition where an increasing number of readers did not have been
>>> conditioned to read traditional newspapers anymore, but were open for
>>> different ways of reading.
>>> In China, where internet users are relative young and mostly not trained
>>> (old) newspaper readers the old way of conditioning reading habits might
>>> never have had a root to start with.
>>>
>>> 4 tmelcher // May 27, 2008 at 5:58 am
>>>
>>> Thanks very much for these great comments, and links to articles on the
>>> same subject. I'd love to find more people interested in this subject!
>>>
>>> 5 Paul Denlinger // May 27, 2008 at 8:51 am
>>>
>>> Here is my guess.
>>> I think that Sina, Sohu and Netease still have to accomodate many new
>>> users, and they are not comfortable clicking through to new pages or
>>> inputting Chinese into search boxes. Instead, they prefer to click directly
>>> on text links of what they want to read. This forces as much content as
>>> possible up to the top-level of the major websites.
>>> >From an aesthetics point of view, it is not pretty. But it works in
>>> China.
>>>
>>> 6 Kaiser Kuo // May 27, 2008 at 9:04 am
>>>
>>> When I was editor-in-chief of a site here in China back in 1999, I hired a
>>> Danish Web designer who built what I thought was a nice, clean, elegant
>>> interface–which, of course, elicited confused "where's the content?" from
>>> our Chinese staff. Eric Rosenblum, who was COO of the company, was initially
>>> with me on the design issue, having a preference for clean. But then a
>>> friend of his straightened him out. "Look at the Chinese retail experience,"
>>> Eric relayed to me. "Chinese shoppers want abundance, things falling off the
>>> shells and piled up in the aisles. It makes it feel like there's a sale on."
>>> He suggested that this experience preference translates well onto the web as
>>> well. He may be right! Anyway, a heat mapping study would be great. I have a
>>> hunch — totally unsupported, of course — that when native readers of Chinese
>>> take in text, it's in a very different way than English readers do, and
>>> there's simply more tolerance for what English readers see as clutter.
>>>
>>> 7 Thijs // May 27, 2008 at 9:36 am
>>>
>>> I've looked into this only on the surface level; and if you look at
>>> pageview time, the chinese websites have much higher values. I've also seen
>>> some heatmapping done before and people have issues "finding" information,
>>> which may contribute to the viewing time. Whether or not this leads to a
>>> more "pleasing" experience, I would not be able to say. I think part of it
>>> is just, what people are used to (habits) and not what would be the best
>>> design.
>>>
>>> 8 Gemme // May 27, 2008 at 10:27 am
>>>
>>> A user behavior study would indeed be great. Like many other commenters I
>>> have struggled with the concept behind all the cluttered pages. Especially
>>> in cases that I had to advice clients on this. Do we go Chinese or do we go
>>> Western.
>>>
>>> My take is that it will depend on the kind of website what will be the
>>> best. Is it information, is it e-commerce, is it entertainment or else. My
>>> hunch is it that it will also change over time.
>>>
>>> One reason, like you mentioned, would be that the dated "advertising per
>>> day" model (no incentive to change as a longer page can carry more ads) will
>>> be replaced with more mature models that actually convert.
>>> Another reason would be the evolvement of design, there's aready a lot of
>>> the so called web 2.0 design happening.
>>>
>>> I asked a company that actually does user behavior and eye tracking
>>> testing but for now their Chinese office doesn' do this yet as it's very
>>> expensive and clients are'nt yet at the stage that they see the benefit.
>>>
>>> I only know of one Chinese eyetracking study but this once was focused on
>>> the difference of behavior on Baidu and Google, see
>>> http://www.enquiroresearch.com/chinese-search-engine-engagement.aspx .
>>> Very intersting but unfortunately the Baidu and Google homepages have a
>>> rather clean lay out so they may not help too much here.
>>>
>>> 9 Paul Denlinger // May 27, 2008 at 12:29 pm
>>>
>>> It would be interesting to study how eye-tracking behavior works
>>> differently in east and west. If you look at magazine layouts in Taiwan,
>>> Japan and Korea, you will see the same in your face cluttered layouts.
>>>
>>> 10 cerebus // May 27, 2008 at 12:40 pm
>>>
>>> I've always wondered why Chinese websites always open links in a new
>>> window (unless you specify tabs in your browser). My theory is that one
>>> reason for the clutter is that there isn't a culture of consumer complaints
>>> in China: no proper feedback mechanism. So although people might find it
>>> annoying, they'll be hard-pressed to actually complain. It always seems to
>>> me Chinese websites just aren't considerate, and want to take over your
>>> whole screen and browser with floating flash ads and pop-ups. TV does the
>>> same: it's not uncommon to see the same ad three or four times in a row. I
>>> don't think arguments about Chinese consumer expectations hold water: more
>>> likely Chinese advertiser expectations are to blame. The old story: you only
>>> need to sell something once to every Chinese person and you'll be a
>>> millionaire. Who cares if some people are annoyed? They're not going to
>>> complain anyway.
>>>
>>> (Please don't attack the obvious generalizations in this opinion. Rather
>>> address the questions. I thank you in advance.)
>>>
>>> 11 tmelcher // May 27, 2008 at 1:58 pm
>>>
>>> Cerebus,
>>>
>>> Thanks for the comment. Too bad your blog is blocked from Beijing!
>>>
>>> I don't quite agree about the culture of no consumer complaints here. I
>>> hear Chinese colleagues bitching about consumer experiences all the time,
>>> and the BBSes are full of horror stories. And lately more companies seem to
>>> be taking notice.
>>>
>>> Based on talking with Chinese friends, it seems they really do prefer
>>> highly-dense presentation. Other posters here have called it a "theory of
>>> abundance", which is an interesting metaphor.
>>>
>>> Bottom line is that I don't know. But I've seen too many foreign web
>>> companies come to China and make mistakes from day one by assuming "good web
>>> design" is global…
>>>
>>> Thanks again!
>>>
>>> 12 Robert Ness // May 27, 2008 at 2:02 pm
>>>
>>> I think you are right on the money with the advertising argument. It all
>>> comes down to a sales person saying–"your ad gets on the front page of
>>> Sina".
>>>
>>> Let's not forget about the simple power of doing things the way people
>>> have been doing it before you. Sina was one of the first big internet
>>> successes in China, so most new websites aren't going to question the wisdom
>>> of their UI design. And when your a media buyer who is accountable to a
>>> boss, which is easier to say if things don't go well, "I placed the ad on
>>> the front page of Sina!" or "I placed the ad on an archived page that gets
>>> high page views from search engine users searching for relevant keywords!"
>>>
>>> Let's avoid the trap of explaining things with culture instead of explicit
>>> motivations.
>>>
>>> 13 tmelcher // May 27, 2008 at 2:28 pm
>>>
>>> Robert,
>>>
>>> I love what you wrote: "avoid the trap of explaining things with culture
>>> instead of explicit motivations". sounds like the inside of a fortune
>>> cookie. Seriously. I've also thought that basic motivations (such as makin'
>>> money) usually trump more-subtle ones…
>>>
>>> --
>>> 夏清然
>>> Xia Qingran
>>> qingran at zeuux.org
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> zeuux-universe mailing list
>>> zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
>>> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>>>
>>> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
>>> http://www.zeuux.org
>>>       
>>
>> --
>> Julien, GONG Min
>> clie.com.cn/blog
>>
>> Google Talk: Julien.Gong at gmail.com
>> MSN: gongmin at x263.net
>> Sina UC: 103327
>> Tel: +8610 6267 5933
>> _______________________________________________
>> zeuux-universe mailing list
>> zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
>> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>>
>> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
>> http://www.zeuux.org
>>
>>     
>
>
>
>   


-- 
夏清然
Xia Qingran
qingran at zeuux.org

Xia Qingran 写道:
> 原文见：
> http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/
> 
> 
>     Why do most Chinese sites look like crap?
有日本友人问过我这个问题，恰巧举例也是新浪。当时我想了想说，大概中国的网 
民还是习惯把这种门户页面当成报纸来看吧。

> 
> 
>         May 26th, 2008 · 13 Comments
>         <http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comments>
> 
> [I wish this post contained all sorts of "a-ha!" insights. Instead, I 
> hope it simply frames some questions that I find interesting].
> 
> Whenever I show Chinese websites to American friends who don’t speak 
> Chinese, the friends universally have the same reaction — “Wow! That 
> site sure is crappy-looking! Guess those guys haven’t learned how to 
> design a good website yet, huh?”
> 
> I made the same mistake myself when I moved to Beijing 4 years ago, 
> fresh from the “cutting-edge” of web design in the Bay Area. “Surely,” I 
> thought, “my superior design sensibility is a key ingredient to why I’ll 
> be successful building B2C websites in China!”
> 
> Boy, was I wrong.
> 
> In case you don’t know what I’m talking about, look at the home page of 
> China’s most-popular website (all of these screen shots are a bit old, 
> but things haven’t changed much). You can click on the image to see it 
> in detail.
> 
> <http://www.melcherruwart.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/sina-home-page.jpg>
> 
> Above is the home page of Sina.com, showing just what you can see “above 
> the fold” (in other words, without scrolling down).
> 
> Now, here’s the above-the-fold home page of my favorite American news site:
> 
> <http://www.melcherruwart.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/ny-times-home-page.jpg>
> 
> For those of you who might argue that Sina is a “portal” and not really 
> a news site, here’s the above-the-fold home page of most popular portal 
> site in the US:
> 
> <http://www.melcherruwart.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/yahoo-home-page.jpg>
> 
> In addition to preferring higher information density per square inch, 
> Chinese readers also seem to prefer higher density per page view. Once 
> again, here’s the home page of Yahoo, showing the entire home page.
> 
> <http://www.melcherruwart.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/yahoo-home-page-long.jpg>
> 
> Here’s the full-length home page of Sina.com, from the same day:
> 
> <http://www.melcherruwart.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/sina-home-page-long.jpg>
> 
> In case my point isn’t clear, below I’ve placed the full-length web 
> pages of the three sites side-by-side, to scale:
> 
> <http://www.melcherruwart.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/yahoo-vs-nyt-vs-sina.jpg>
> 
> Most Americans are by now nodding their heads: “Yep. Love those US 
> sites. Much more advanced. Clean, simple design. Not cluttered. Guess 
> those Chinese guys will figure that out sooner or later.”
> 
> What’s fascinating is that my Chinese friends have a very different take 
> on the US sites: “They look skimpy, and empty. Where’s all the content?? 
> The home page is just navigation.”
> 
> After talking about this issue with many friends, it appears that 
> Chinese and American (I won’t say “Western” since I don’t know much 
> about Europeans) look at/read websites in very different ways. [To 
> forestall critics, when I say "Americans" I mean native English speakers 
> and readers who live in America, even though there are obviously many 
> Americans who don't speak English natively].
> 
> While it’s clear that both peoples “scan,” and then only sometimes 
> “read”, the way they scan is very different. Chinese people strongly 
> prefer a density that is far beyond what most Americans can tolerate. In 
> addition, Chinese people seem to be scanning for keywords (or more 
> precisely “key-characters”), while Americans like to read “headlines” 
> (aka short pithy phrases) and look at arresting photos.
> 
> So here’s my question: “Do Chinese online users and American online 
> users scan/read web pages differently? if so, why? What does that mean 
> for online business?”
> 
> It turns out that no one seems to know the answer. I asked Jakob Nielsen 
> <http://www.useit.com/>, the famous web usability expert, if he knew of 
> any research on this topic. His simple answer: “No.” He suggested I 
> attend his upcoming usability workshop, which looks cool but is (a) 
> beyond my price point and (b) potentially not relevant for the Chinese 
> market (which is the whole point of this post).
> 
> I can’t find anyone, anywhere, who is researching this question. If you 
> know someone, please let me know.
> 
> I would LOVE to have someone do real research into this issue, using the 
> latest eye-tracking technology. I might even have (gasp!) a shoestring 
> budget to fund this. I’ve approached a friend at the Chinese Central 
> Arts University, but they don’t have the technology. Any takers??
> 
> In the meantime, some of my own thoughts on this issue.
> 
> First, I decided to compare newspaper front pages in China and the US. i 
> figured that this comparison would yield the same enormous differences 
> in information density. I remembered that Chinese newspapers from years 
> ago were really dense visually. Much to my surprise, though, there are 
> no longer vast differences between the layout and visual density of the 
> top Beijing newspapers and English-language newspapers in New York.
> 
> I found this fascinating. Why are the designs of the front pages of the 
> major daily newspapers converging, while the website home pages are not? 
> Does this mean that Chinese newspapers are more, or less, in touch with 
> how their readers want to read?
> 
> Then I started to think about what might explain the differences online, 
> since they seem to exist only there. Said another way, are there unique 
> “online” circumstances in China that might be influencing home page design?
> 
> I think the answer is yes.
> 
> In the US, online advertising is (mostly) sold by “page view”. For 
> example, an advertiser buys a certain amount of page views over time. In 
> China, most online advertising is still sold by time-period, as in “buy 
> an ad on the home page for one month.”
> 
> As I thought it through, I realized that these different pricing 
> methodologies created different incentives. In the US, you want “more 
> page views per visit”, because that’s how you create advertising 
> inventory. In China, you create more advertising inventory by making 
> your home page longer.
> 
> Is this the explanation?? If so, does this mean that when (if?) China 
> moves to a per-impression model, home pages will get shorter and less 
> dense? Or has the online audience in China become accustomed to 
> super-high density? If so, then how come newspapers are no longer as 
> dense as they were?
> 
> By now I hope you’re starting to find these questions as interesting as 
> I find them. I’d love to hear what you think!
> 
> *Tags:* Chinese internet explained 
> <http://www.melcherruwart.com/category/chinese-internet-explained/>
> 
> 
>       13 responses so far ↓
> 
>     *
> 
>       1
>       <http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-142>
>       *John <http://www.sinosplice.com/life/> * // May 26, 2008 at 7:53 pm
> 
>       It is an interesting question. You’re right that you aren’t the
>       first to notice this, but given the keywords involved, it’s a bit
>       problematic to search for the topic. Here are a few other
>       commentaries:
> 
>       http://www.churbuck.com/wordpress/?p=540
> 
>       http://reganmian.net/blog/2007/09/30/website-design-in-china/
> 
>       http://www.virtual-china.org/2006/03/30/aesthetics-of-abundance/
> 
>     *
> 
>       2
>       <http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-148>
>       *Florian Pihs <http://longmarch.chinalytics.com> * // May 27, 2008
>       at 12:17 am
> 
>       Thanks Melcher. Interesting post. I have asked myself the same
>       questions hundreds of times. While we see Chinese users engage
>       with websites differently that their western counterparts, basic
>       web design principles remain intact (but are largely ignored by
>       most local sites) e.g. there is no engagement after the 3rd
>       screen, but pages are still 5-6 screens long. Blame it on Sina or
>       the lack of usability research.
> 
>     *
> 
>       3
>       <http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-155>
>       *Fons Tuinstra <http://www.chinaherald.net> * // May 27, 2008 at
>       4:45 am
> 
>       I think you are touching here on a key discussion: it is about
>       what your readers want, how to they absorb their information and
>       what is the best way to get a message across.
>       I do not have a clear answer, but I had some weeks ago an
>       interesting discussion with the chief-editor of the website of the
>       largest broadsheet in Poland:
>       http://witeam.blogspot.com/2008/04/observation-scrolling-no-longer-problem.html
>       They had done some research, eye-tracking stuff, and discovered
>       that some of the standard assumption on how people read a website
>       had change over the years. Scrolling (a nono in traditional
>       webdesign) did not seem to be a problem and people did not read
>       anymore from the top-left corner downwards.
>       Our unproven assumption was then that this might be a generational
>       transition where an increasing number of readers did not have been
>       conditioned to read traditional newspapers anymore, but were open
>       for different ways of reading.
>       In China, where internet users are relative young and mostly not
>       trained (old) newspaper readers the old way of conditioning
>       reading habits might never have had a root to start with.
> 
>     *
> 
>       4
>       <http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-156>
>       *tmelcher * // May 27, 2008 at 5:58 am
> 
>       Thanks very much for these great comments, and links to articles
>       on the same subject. I’d love to find more people interested in
>       this subject!
> 
>     *
> 
>       5
>       <http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-157>
>       *Paul Denlinger <http://www.chinavortex.com> * // May 27, 2008 at
>       8:51 am
> 
>       Here is my guess.
>       I think that Sina, Sohu and Netease still have to accomodate many
>       new users, and they are not comfortable clicking through to new
>       pages or inputting Chinese into search boxes. Instead, they prefer
>       to click directly on text links of what they want to read. This
>       forces as much content as possible up to the top-level of the
>       major websites.
>        >From an aesthetics point of view, it is not pretty. But it works
>       in China.
> 
>     *
> 
>       6
>       <http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-158>
>       *Kaiser Kuo <http://digitalwatch.ogilvy.com.cn/en> * // May 27,
>       2008 at 9:04 am
> 
>       When I was editor-in-chief of a site here in China back in 1999, I
>       hired a Danish Web designer who built what I thought was a nice,
>       clean, elegant interface–which, of course, elicited confused
>       “where’s the content?” from our Chinese staff. Eric Rosenblum, who
>       was COO of the company, was initially with me on the design issue,
>       having a preference for clean. But then a friend of his
>       straightened him out. “Look at the Chinese retail experience,”
>       Eric relayed to me. “Chinese shoppers want abundance, things
>       falling off the shells and piled up in the aisles. It makes it
>       feel like there’s a sale on.” He suggested that this experience
>       preference translates well onto the web as well. He may be right!
>       Anyway, a heat mapping study would be great. I have a hunch —
>       totally unsupported, of course — that when native readers of
>       Chinese take in text, it’s in a very different way than English
>       readers do, and there’s simply more tolerance for what English
>       readers see as clutter.
> 
>     *
> 
>       7
>       <http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-159>
>       *Thijs * // May 27, 2008 at 9:36 am
> 
>       I’ve looked into this only on the surface level; and if you look
>       at pageview time, the chinese websites have much higher values.
>       I’ve also seen some heatmapping done before and people have issues
>       “finding” information, which may contribute to the viewing time.
>       Whether or not this leads to a more “pleasing” experience, I would
>       not be able to say. I think part of it is just, what people are
>       used to (habits) and not what would be the best design.
> 
>     *
> 
>       8
>       <http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-162>
>       *Gemme <http://www.chinasnippets.com> * // May 27, 2008 at 10:27 am
> 
>       A user behavior study would indeed be great. Like many other
>       commenters I have struggled with the concept behind all the
>       cluttered pages. Especially in cases that I had to advice clients
>       on this. Do we go Chinese or do we go Western.
> 
>       My take is that it will depend on the kind of website what will be
>       the best. Is it information, is it e-commerce, is it entertainment
>       or else. My hunch is it that it will also change over time.
> 
>       One reason, like you mentioned, would be that the dated
>       “advertising per day” model (no incentive to change as a longer
>       page can carry more ads) will be replaced with more mature models
>       that actually convert.
>       Another reason would be the evolvement of design, there’s aready a
>       lot of the so called web 2.0 design happening.
> 
>       I asked a company that actually does user behavior and eye
>       tracking testing but for now their Chinese office doesn’ do this
>       yet as it’s very expensive and clients are’nt yet at the stage
>       that they see the benefit.
> 
>       I only know of one Chinese eyetracking study but this once was
>       focused on the difference of behavior on Baidu and Google, see
>       http://www.enquiroresearch.com/chinese-search-engine-engagement.aspx .
>       Very intersting but unfortunately the Baidu and Google homepages
>       have a rather clean lay out so they may not help too much here.
> 
>     *
> 
>       9
>       <http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-166>
>       *Paul Denlinger <http://www.chinavortex.com> * // May 27, 2008 at
>       12:29 pm
> 
>       It would be interesting to study how eye-tracking behavior works
>       differently in east and west. If you look at magazine layouts in
>       Taiwan, Japan and Korea, you will see the same in your face
>       cluttered layouts.
> 
>     *
> 
>       10
>       <http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-167>
>       *cerebus <http://aityt.blogspot.com> * // May 27, 2008 at 12:40 pm
> 
>       I’ve always wondered why Chinese websites always open links in a
>       new window (unless you specify tabs in your browser). My theory is
>       that one reason for the clutter is that there isn’t a culture of
>       consumer complaints in China: no proper feedback mechanism. So
>       although people might find it annoying, they’ll be hard-pressed to
>       actually complain. It always seems to me Chinese websites just
>       aren’t considerate, and want to take over your whole screen and
>       browser with floating flash ads and pop-ups. TV does the same:
>       it’s not uncommon to see the same ad three or four times in a row.
>       I don’t think arguments about Chinese consumer expectations hold
>       water: more likely Chinese advertiser expectations are to blame.
>       The old story: you only need to sell something once to every
>       Chinese person and you’ll be a millionaire. Who cares if some
>       people are annoyed? They’re not going to complain anyway.
> 
>       (Please don’t attack the obvious generalizations in this opinion.
>       Rather address the questions. I thank you in advance.)
> 
>     *
> 
>       11
>       <http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-173>
>       *tmelcher * // May 27, 2008 at 1:58 pm
> 
>       Cerebus,
> 
>       Thanks for the comment. Too bad your blog is blocked from Beijing!
> 
>       I don’t quite agree about the culture of no consumer complaints
>       here. I hear Chinese colleagues bitching about consumer
>       experiences all the time, and the BBSes are full of horror
>       stories. And lately more companies seem to be taking notice.
> 
>       Based on talking with Chinese friends, it seems they really do
>       prefer highly-dense presentation. Other posters here have called
>       it a “theory of abundance”, which is an interesting metaphor.
> 
>       Bottom line is that I don’t know. But I’ve seen too many foreign
>       web companies come to China and make mistakes from day one by
>       assuming “good web design” is global…
> 
>       Thanks again!
> 
>     *
> 
>       12
>       <http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-174>
>       *Robert Ness <http://www.jobdou.com> * // May 27, 2008 at 2:02 pm
> 
>       I think you are right on the money with the advertising argument.
>       It all comes down to a sales person saying–”your ad gets on the
>       front page of Sina”.
> 
>       Let’s not forget about the simple power of doing things the way
>       people have been doing it before you. Sina was one of the first
>       big internet successes in China, so most new websites aren’t going
>       to question the wisdom of their UI design. And when your a media
>       buyer who is accountable to a boss, which is easier to say if
>       things don’t go well, “I placed the ad on the front page of Sina!”
>       or “I placed the ad on an archived page that gets high page views
>       from search engine users searching for relevant keywords!”
> 
>       Let’s avoid the trap of explaining things with culture instead of
>       explicit motivations.
> 
>     *
> 
>       13
>       <http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-178>
>       *tmelcher * // May 27, 2008 at 2:28 pm
> 
>       Robert,
> 
>       I love what you wrote: “avoid the trap of explaining things with
>       culture instead of explicit motivations”. sounds like the inside
>       of a fortune cookie. Seriously. I’ve also thought that basic
>       motivations (such as makin’ money) usually trump more-subtle ones…
> 
> 
> -- 
> 夏清然
> Xia Qingran
> qingran在zeuux.org
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> zeuux-universe mailing list
> zeuux-universe在zeuux.org
> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
> 
> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> http://www.zeuux.org

2008/5/27 Harry Li <harryl.byread at gmail.com>:
> 网页价值观差异，没有什么问题。他口中的crap在我们眼中并不是crap，就这么简单。他要是看到QQ的用户行为的话，肯定会疯掉的~~
价值观是个人的取向， 如新浪这般实属强奸网民。

On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 03:34:05PM +0800, Harry Li wrote:
> 网页价值观差异，没有什么问题。他口中的crap在我们眼中并不是crap，就这么简单。他要是看到QQ的用户行为的话，肯定会疯掉的~~

我觉得确实都是 crap...

> 2008/5/27 Julien GONG Min (Gmail) <julien.gong在gmail.com>:
> > 用CT的标准去衡量Yahoo，信息量还是不够丰富。我觉得这个问题并不是很重要，反正我自己都不看新浪的首页-。-
> > 需要的人会看的，而且这种人在中国很多很多……
> >
> > On 5/27/08, Xia Qingran <qingran在zeuux.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> 原文见：
> >>
> >> http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/
> >>
> >>
> >> Why do most Chinese sites look like crap?
> >>
> >> May 26th, 2008 · 13 Comments
> >>
> >> [I wish this post contained all sorts of "a-ha!" insights. Instead, I hope
> >> it simply frames some questions that I find interesting].
> >>
> >> Whenever I show Chinese websites to American friends who don't speak
> >> Chinese, the friends universally have the same reaction — "Wow! That site
> >> sure is crappy-looking! Guess those guys haven't learned how to design a
> >> good website yet, huh?"
> >>
> >> I made the same mistake myself when I moved to Beijing 4 years ago, fresh
> >> from the "cutting-edge" of web design in the Bay Area. "Surely," I thought,
> >> "my superior design sensibility is a key ingredient to why I'll be
> >> successful building B2C websites in China!"
> >>
> >> Boy, was I wrong.
> >>
> >> In case you don't know what I'm talking about, look at the home page of
> >> China's most-popular website (all of these screen shots are a bit old, but
> >> things haven't changed much). You can click on the image to see it in
> >> detail.
> >>
> >> Above is the home page of Sina.com, showing just what you can see "above
> >> the fold" (in other words, without scrolling down).
> >>
> >> Now, here's the above-the-fold home page of my favorite American news
> >> site:
> >>
> >> For those of you who might argue that Sina is a "portal" and not really a
> >> news site, here's the above-the-fold home page of most popular portal site
> >> in the US:
> >>
> >> In addition to preferring higher information density per square inch,
> >> Chinese readers also seem to prefer higher density per page view. Once
> >> again, here's the home page of Yahoo, showing the entire home page.
> >>
> >> Here's the full-length home page of Sina.com, from the same day:
> >>
> >> In case my point isn't clear, below I've placed the full-length web pages
> >> of the three sites side-by-side, to scale:
> >>
> >> Most Americans are by now nodding their heads: "Yep. Love those US sites.
> >> Much more advanced. Clean, simple design. Not cluttered. Guess those Chinese
> >> guys will figure that out sooner or later."
> >>
> >> What's fascinating is that my Chinese friends have a very different take
> >> on the US sites: "They look skimpy, and empty. Where's all the content?? The
> >> home page is just navigation."
> >>
> >> After talking about this issue with many friends, it appears that Chinese
> >> and American (I won't say "Western" since I don't know much about Europeans)
> >> look at/read websites in very different ways. [To forestall critics, when I
> >> say "Americans" I mean native English speakers and readers who live in
> >> America, even though there are obviously many Americans who don't speak
> >> English natively].
> >>
> >> While it's clear that both peoples "scan," and then only sometimes "read",
> >> the way they scan is very different. Chinese people strongly prefer a
> >> density that is far beyond what most Americans can tolerate. In addition,
> >> Chinese people seem to be scanning for keywords (or more precisely
> >> "key-characters"), while Americans like to read "headlines" (aka short pithy
> >> phrases) and look at arresting photos.
> >>
> >> So here's my question: "Do Chinese online users and American online users
> >> scan/read web pages differently? if so, why? What does that mean for online
> >> business?"
> >>
> >> It turns out that no one seems to know the answer. I asked Jakob Nielsen,
> >> the famous web usability expert, if he knew of any research on this topic.
> >> His simple answer: "No." He suggested I attend his upcoming usability
> >> workshop, which looks cool but is (a) beyond my price point and (b)
> >> potentially not relevant for the Chinese market (which is the whole point of
> >> this post).
> >>
> >> I can't find anyone, anywhere, who is researching this question. If you
> >> know someone, please let me know.
> >>
> >> I would LOVE to have someone do real research into this issue, using the
> >> latest eye-tracking technology. I might even have (gasp!) a shoestring
> >> budget to fund this. I've approached a friend at the Chinese Central Arts
> >> University, but they don't have the technology. Any takers??
> >>
> >> In the meantime, some of my own thoughts on this issue.
> >>
> >> First, I decided to compare newspaper front pages in China and the US. i
> >> figured that this comparison would yield the same enormous differences in
> >> information density. I remembered that Chinese newspapers from years ago
> >> were really dense visually. Much to my surprise, though, there are no longer
> >> vast differences between the layout and visual density of the top Beijing
> >> newspapers and English-language newspapers in New York.
> >>
> >> I found this fascinating. Why are the designs of the front pages of the
> >> major daily newspapers converging, while the website home pages are not?
> >> Does this mean that Chinese newspapers are more, or less, in touch with how
> >> their readers want to read?
> >>
> >> Then I started to think about what might explain the differences online,
> >> since they seem to exist only there. Said another way, are there unique
> >> "online" circumstances in China that might be influencing home page design?
> >>
> >> I think the answer is yes.
> >>
> >> In the US, online advertising is (mostly) sold by "page view". For
> >> example, an advertiser buys a certain amount of page views over time. In
> >> China, most online advertising is still sold by time-period, as in "buy an
> >> ad on the home page for one month."
> >>
> >> As I thought it through, I realized that these different pricing
> >> methodologies created different incentives. In the US, you want "more page
> >> views per visit", because that's how you create advertising inventory. In
> >> China, you create more advertising inventory by making your home page
> >> longer.
> >>
> >> Is this the explanation?? If so, does this mean that when (if?) China
> >> moves to a per-impression model, home pages will get shorter and less dense?
> >> Or has the online audience in China become accustomed to super-high density?
> >> If so, then how come newspapers are no longer as dense as they were?
> >>
> >> By now I hope you're starting to find these questions as interesting as I
> >> find them. I'd love to hear what you think!
> >>
> >> Tags: Chinese internet explained
> >>
> >> 13 responses so far ↓
> >>
> >> 1 John // May 26, 2008 at 7:53 pm
> >>
> >> It is an interesting question. You're right that you aren't the first to
> >> notice this, but given the keywords involved, it's a bit problematic to
> >> search for the topic. Here are a few other commentaries:
> >>
> >> http://www.churbuck.com/wordpress/?p=540
> >>
> >> http://reganmian.net/blog/2007/09/30/website-design-in-china/
> >>
> >> http://www.virtual-china.org/2006/03/30/aesthetics-of-abundance/
> >>
> >> 2 Florian Pihs // May 27, 2008 at 12:17 am
> >>
> >> Thanks Melcher. Interesting post. I have asked myself the same questions
> >> hundreds of times. While we see Chinese users engage with websites
> >> differently that their western counterparts, basic web design principles
> >> remain intact (but are largely ignored by most local sites) e.g. there is no
> >> engagement after the 3rd screen, but pages are still 5-6 screens long. Blame
> >> it on Sina or the lack of usability research.
> >>
> >> 3 Fons Tuinstra // May 27, 2008 at 4:45 am
> >>
> >> I think you are touching here on a key discussion: it is about what your
> >> readers want, how to they absorb their information and what is the best way
> >> to get a message across.
> >> I do not have a clear answer, but I had some weeks ago an interesting
> >> discussion with the chief-editor of the website of the largest broadsheet in
> >> Poland:
> >>
> >> http://witeam.blogspot.com/2008/04/observation-scrolling-no-longer-problem.html
> >> They had done some research, eye-tracking stuff, and discovered that some
> >> of the standard assumption on how people read a website had change over the
> >> years. Scrolling (a nono in traditional webdesign) did not seem to be a
> >> problem and people did not read anymore from the top-left corner downwards.
> >> Our unproven assumption was then that this might be a generational
> >> transition where an increasing number of readers did not have been
> >> conditioned to read traditional newspapers anymore, but were open for
> >> different ways of reading.
> >> In China, where internet users are relative young and mostly not trained
> >> (old) newspaper readers the old way of conditioning reading habits might
> >> never have had a root to start with.
> >>
> >> 4 tmelcher // May 27, 2008 at 5:58 am
> >>
> >> Thanks very much for these great comments, and links to articles on the
> >> same subject. I'd love to find more people interested in this subject!
> >>
> >> 5 Paul Denlinger // May 27, 2008 at 8:51 am
> >>
> >> Here is my guess.
> >> I think that Sina, Sohu and Netease still have to accomodate many new
> >> users, and they are not comfortable clicking through to new pages or
> >> inputting Chinese into search boxes. Instead, they prefer to click directly
> >> on text links of what they want to read. This forces as much content as
> >> possible up to the top-level of the major websites.
> >> >From an aesthetics point of view, it is not pretty. But it works in
> >> China.
> >>
> >> 6 Kaiser Kuo // May 27, 2008 at 9:04 am
> >>
> >> When I was editor-in-chief of a site here in China back in 1999, I hired a
> >> Danish Web designer who built what I thought was a nice, clean, elegant
> >> interface–which, of course, elicited confused "where's the content?" from
> >> our Chinese staff. Eric Rosenblum, who was COO of the company, was initially
> >> with me on the design issue, having a preference for clean. But then a
> >> friend of his straightened him out. "Look at the Chinese retail experience,"
> >> Eric relayed to me. "Chinese shoppers want abundance, things falling off the
> >> shells and piled up in the aisles. It makes it feel like there's a sale on."
> >> He suggested that this experience preference translates well onto the web as
> >> well. He may be right! Anyway, a heat mapping study would be great. I have a
> >> hunch — totally unsupported, of course — that when native readers of Chinese
> >> take in text, it's in a very different way than English readers do, and
> >> there's simply more tolerance for what English readers see as clutter.
> >>
> >> 7 Thijs // May 27, 2008 at 9:36 am
> >>
> >> I've looked into this only on the surface level; and if you look at
> >> pageview time, the chinese websites have much higher values. I've also seen
> >> some heatmapping done before and people have issues "finding" information,
> >> which may contribute to the viewing time. Whether or not this leads to a
> >> more "pleasing" experience, I would not be able to say. I think part of it
> >> is just, what people are used to (habits) and not what would be the best
> >> design.
> >>
> >> 8 Gemme // May 27, 2008 at 10:27 am
> >>
> >> A user behavior study would indeed be great. Like many other commenters I
> >> have struggled with the concept behind all the cluttered pages. Especially
> >> in cases that I had to advice clients on this. Do we go Chinese or do we go
> >> Western.
> >>
> >> My take is that it will depend on the kind of website what will be the
> >> best. Is it information, is it e-commerce, is it entertainment or else. My
> >> hunch is it that it will also change over time.
> >>
> >> One reason, like you mentioned, would be that the dated "advertising per
> >> day" model (no incentive to change as a longer page can carry more ads) will
> >> be replaced with more mature models that actually convert.
> >> Another reason would be the evolvement of design, there's aready a lot of
> >> the so called web 2.0 design happening.
> >>
> >> I asked a company that actually does user behavior and eye tracking
> >> testing but for now their Chinese office doesn' do this yet as it's very
> >> expensive and clients are'nt yet at the stage that they see the benefit.
> >>
> >> I only know of one Chinese eyetracking study but this once was focused on
> >> the difference of behavior on Baidu and Google, see
> >> http://www.enquiroresearch.com/chinese-search-engine-engagement.aspx .
> >> Very intersting but unfortunately the Baidu and Google homepages have a
> >> rather clean lay out so they may not help too much here.
> >>
> >> 9 Paul Denlinger // May 27, 2008 at 12:29 pm
> >>
> >> It would be interesting to study how eye-tracking behavior works
> >> differently in east and west. If you look at magazine layouts in Taiwan,
> >> Japan and Korea, you will see the same in your face cluttered layouts.
> >>
> >> 10 cerebus // May 27, 2008 at 12:40 pm
> >>
> >> I've always wondered why Chinese websites always open links in a new
> >> window (unless you specify tabs in your browser). My theory is that one
> >> reason for the clutter is that there isn't a culture of consumer complaints
> >> in China: no proper feedback mechanism. So although people might find it
> >> annoying, they'll be hard-pressed to actually complain. It always seems to
> >> me Chinese websites just aren't considerate, and want to take over your
> >> whole screen and browser with floating flash ads and pop-ups. TV does the
> >> same: it's not uncommon to see the same ad three or four times in a row. I
> >> don't think arguments about Chinese consumer expectations hold water: more
> >> likely Chinese advertiser expectations are to blame. The old story: you only
> >> need to sell something once to every Chinese person and you'll be a
> >> millionaire. Who cares if some people are annoyed? They're not going to
> >> complain anyway.
> >>
> >> (Please don't attack the obvious generalizations in this opinion. Rather
> >> address the questions. I thank you in advance.)
> >>
> >> 11 tmelcher // May 27, 2008 at 1:58 pm
> >>
> >> Cerebus,
> >>
> >> Thanks for the comment. Too bad your blog is blocked from Beijing!
> >>
> >> I don't quite agree about the culture of no consumer complaints here. I
> >> hear Chinese colleagues bitching about consumer experiences all the time,
> >> and the BBSes are full of horror stories. And lately more companies seem to
> >> be taking notice.
> >>
> >> Based on talking with Chinese friends, it seems they really do prefer
> >> highly-dense presentation. Other posters here have called it a "theory of
> >> abundance", which is an interesting metaphor.
> >>
> >> Bottom line is that I don't know. But I've seen too many foreign web
> >> companies come to China and make mistakes from day one by assuming "good web
> >> design" is global…
> >>
> >> Thanks again!
> >>
> >> 12 Robert Ness // May 27, 2008 at 2:02 pm
> >>
> >> I think you are right on the money with the advertising argument. It all
> >> comes down to a sales person saying–"your ad gets on the front page of
> >> Sina".
> >>
> >> Let's not forget about the simple power of doing things the way people
> >> have been doing it before you. Sina was one of the first big internet
> >> successes in China, so most new websites aren't going to question the wisdom
> >> of their UI design. And when your a media buyer who is accountable to a
> >> boss, which is easier to say if things don't go well, "I placed the ad on
> >> the front page of Sina!" or "I placed the ad on an archived page that gets
> >> high page views from search engine users searching for relevant keywords!"
> >>
> >> Let's avoid the trap of explaining things with culture instead of explicit
> >> motivations.
> >>
> >> 13 tmelcher // May 27, 2008 at 2:28 pm
> >>
> >> Robert,
> >>
> >> I love what you wrote: "avoid the trap of explaining things with culture
> >> instead of explicit motivations". sounds like the inside of a fortune
> >> cookie. Seriously. I've also thought that basic motivations (such as makin'
> >> money) usually trump more-subtle ones…
> >>
> >> --
> >> 夏清然
> >> Xia Qingran
> >> qingran在zeuux.org
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> zeuux-universe mailing list
> >> zeuux-universe在zeuux.org
> >> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
> >>
> >> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> >> http://www.zeuux.org
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Julien, GONG Min
> > clie.com.cn/blog
> >
> > Google Talk: Julien.Gong在gmail.com
> > MSN: gongmin在x263.net
> > Sina UC: 103327
> > Tel: +8610 6267 5933
> > _______________________________________________
> > zeuux-universe mailing list
> > zeuux-universe在zeuux.org
> > http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
> >
> > ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> > http://www.zeuux.org
> >
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Best Regards
> Harry Li
> _______________________________________________
> zeuux-universe mailing list
> zeuux-universe在zeuux.org
> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
> 
> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> http://www.zeuux.org
-- 
There is no emotion; there is peace.
There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.
There is no passion; there is serenity.
There is no death; there is the Force.
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2008/5/27 Zhengpeng Hou <zhengpeng.hou在gmail.com>:
> 2008/5/27 Harry Li <harryl.byread在gmail.com>:
>> 网页价值观差异，没有什么问题。他口中的crap在我们眼中并不是crap，就这么简单。他要是看到QQ的用户行为的话，肯定会疯掉的~~
> 价值观是个人的取向， 如新浪这般实属强奸网民。
经济原因,你们知道 SINA 的首页广告是怎么报价的就知道首页为什么恨不能几十翻了!
要不是单页数据量太大,已经令IE招不住了,
SINA 有信心和气势将首页整成几百米长的!

> _______________________________________________
> zeuux-universe mailing list
> zeuux-universe在zeuux.org
> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>
> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> http://www.zeuux.org



-- 
'''过程改进乃是催生可促生靠谱的人的组织!
PE keeps evolving organizations which promoting people be good!
'''http://zoomquiet.org
Pls. usage OOo to replace M$ Office. http://zh.openoffice.org
Pls. usage 7-zip to replace WinRAR/WinZip. http://7-zip.org
You can get the truely Freedom 4 software.

2008/5/27 Zoom. Quiet <zoom.quiet at gmail.com>:
> 2008/5/27 Zhengpeng Hou <zhengpeng.hou at gmail.com>:
>> 2008/5/27 Harry Li <harryl.byread at gmail.com>:
>>> 网页价值观差异，没有什么问题。他口中的crap在我们眼中并不是crap，就这么简单。他要是看到QQ的用户行为的话，肯定会疯掉的~~
>> 价值观是个人的取向， 如新浪这般实属强奸网民。
> 经济原因,你们知道 SINA 的首页广告是怎么报价的就知道首页为什么恨不能几十翻了!
> 要不是单页数据量太大,已经令IE招不住了,
> SINA 有信心和气势将首页整成几百米长的!
君子爱财，要取之有道。
BTW: 想来这里有不少人工作于sina， 不如先建议建议你们的东家好好规范一下自家的网页  :P 似乎比那银行的行动意义更大

On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 04:48:58PM +0800, Zhengpeng Hou wrote:
> 2008/5/27 Zoom. Quiet <zoom.quiet在gmail.com>:
> > 2008/5/27 Zhengpeng Hou <zhengpeng.hou在gmail.com>:
> >> 2008/5/27 Harry Li <harryl.byread在gmail.com>:
> >>> 网页价值观差异，没有什么问题。他口中的crap在我们眼中并不是crap，就这么简单。他要是看到QQ的用户行为的话，肯定会疯掉的~~
> >> 价值观是个人的取向， 如新浪这般实属强奸网民。
> > 经济原因,你们知道 SINA 的首页广告是怎么报价的就知道首页为什么恨不能几十翻了!
> > 要不是单页数据量太大,已经令IE招不住了,
> > SINA 有信心和气势将首页整成几百米长的!
> 君子爱财，要取之有道。
> BTW: 想来这里有不少人工作于sina， 不如先建议建议你们的东家好好规范一下自家的网页  :P 似乎比那银行的行动意义更大

很多中国一般网民都从来不去国外的网站，可能都不着都正常的网页是什么样的...
要是下电驴的还好，见过 verycd.com。

> _______________________________________________
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> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
> 
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> http://www.zeuux.org
-- 
There is no emotion; there is peace.
There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.
There is no passion; there is serenity.
There is no death; there is the Force.
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但是再怎么长，也要遵循经济规律。如果数百米长，那排在后面还是和第二click的页面有一比的。买家卖家都不傻~~

2008/5/27 Zoom. Quiet <zoom.quiet at gmail.com>:
> 2008/5/27 Zhengpeng Hou <zhengpeng.hou at gmail.com>:
>> 2008/5/27 Harry Li <harryl.byread at gmail.com>:
>>> 网页价值观差异，没有什么问题。他口中的crap在我们眼中并不是crap，就这么简单。他要是看到QQ的用户行为的话，肯定会疯掉的~~
>> 价值观是个人的取向， 如新浪这般实属强奸网民。
> 经济原因,你们知道 SINA 的首页广告是怎么报价的就知道首页为什么恨不能几十翻了!
> 要不是单页数据量太大,已经令IE招不住了,
> SINA 有信心和气势将首页整成几百米长的!
>
>> _______________________________________________
>> zeuux-universe mailing list
>> zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
>> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>>
>> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
>> http://www.zeuux.org
>
>
>
> --
> '''过程改进乃是催生可促生靠谱的人的组织!
> PE keeps evolving organizations which promoting people be good!
> '''http://zoomquiet.org
> Pls. usage OOo to replace M$ Office. http://zh.openoffice.org
> Pls. usage 7-zip to replace WinRAR/WinZip. http://7-zip.org
> You can get the truely Freedom 4 software.
> _______________________________________________
> zeuux-universe mailing list
> zeuux-universe at zeuux.org
> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>
> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
> http://www.zeuux.org



-- 
Best Regards
Harry Li

ͳһ¸Ã¹Ûµã¡£

ÔÚ 2008-5-27£¬ÏÂÎç5:22£¬ Zoom.Quiet дµÀ£º

> 2008/5/27 Zhengpeng Hou <zhengpeng.hou在gmail.com>:
>> 2008/5/27 Harry Li <harryl.byread在gmail.com>:
>>> ÍøÒ³¼ÛÖµ¹Û²îÒ죬ûÓÐʲôÎÊÌâ¡£Ëû¿ÚÖеÄcrapÔÚÎÒÃÇÑÛÖÐ 
>>> ²¢²»ÊÇcrap£¬¾ÍÕâô¼òµ¥¡£ËûÒªÊÇ¿´µ½QQµÄÓû§ÐÐΪµÄ»°£¬¿Ï¶¨»á·èµôµÄ~~
>> ¼ÛÖµ¹ÛÊǸöÈ˵ÄÈ¡Ïò£¬ ÈçÐÂÀËÕâ°ãʵÊôÇ¿¼éÍøÃñ¡£
> ¾­¼ÃÔ­Òò,ÄãÃÇÖªµÀ SINA µÄÊ×Ò³¹ã¸æÊÇÔõô±¨¼ÛµÄ¾ÍÖªµÀÊ× 
> ҳΪʲôºÞ²»Äܼ¸Ê®·­ÁË!
> Òª²»Êǵ¥Ò³Êý¾ÝÁ¿Ì«´ó,ÒѾ­ÁîIEÕв»×¡ÁË,
> SINA ÓÐÐÅÐĺÍÆøÊƽ«Ê×Ò³Õû³É¼¸°ÙÃ׳¤µÄ!
>
>> _______________________________________________
>> zeuux-universe mailing list
>> zeuux-universe在zeuux.org
>> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>>
>> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society!
>> http://www.zeuux.org
>
>
>
> -- 
> '''¹ý³Ì¸Ä½øÄËÊÇ´ßÉú¿É´ÙÉú¿¿Æ×µÄÈ˵Ä×éÖ¯!
> PE keeps evolving organizations which promoting people be good!
> '''http://zoomquiet.org
> Pls. usage OOo to replace M$ Office. http://zh.openoffice.org
> Pls. usage 7-zip to replace WinRAR/WinZip. http://7-zip.org
> You can get the truely Freedom 4 software.
> _______________________________________________
> zeuux-universe mailing list
> zeuux-universe在zeuux.org
> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe
>
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看到这个信息顺便借题发挥，我的女朋友小俞是自由职业人，设计网页。她的设计
作品常常是很干净的，合于国标上的习惯。她是完全使用自由软件做设计的
（Gnome+Ubuntu+Gedit+Firefox/WebDeveloper+Opear+GIMP+gftp），所以希望大
家捧个场，如果有这种需求的介绍给她。

她的设计作品和业务介绍都在她的主页上： http://www.yuliansu.com

Zhang Weiwu wrote:
> 看到这个信息顺便借题发挥，我的女朋友小俞是自由职业人，设计网页。她的设计
> 作品常常是很干净的，合于国标上的习惯。她是完全使用自由软件做设计的
> （Gnome+Ubuntu+Gedit+Firefox/WebDeveloper+Opear+GIMP+gftp），所以希望大
> 家捧个场，如果有这种需求的介绍给她。
>
> 她的设计作品和业务介绍都在她的主页上： http://www.yuliansu.com
>
>   
忘了说了她在北京，北京的业务优先。
小俞的作品案例： http://www.yuliansu.com/portfolio

-- 
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Huateng Tower, Unit 1788
Jia 302 3rd area of Jinsong, Chao Yang

Tel: +86 (10) 8773 0650 ext 603
Mobile: 159 1111 7382
http://www.realss.com

2008/5/27 Zhang Weiwu <zhangweiwu at realss.com>:
>
> 看到这个信息顺便借题发挥，我的女朋友小俞是自由职业人，设计网页。她的设计
> 作品常常是很干净的，合于国标上的习惯。她是完全使用自由软件做设计的
> （Gnome+Ubuntu+Gedit+Firefox/WebDeveloper+Opear+GIMP+gftp），所以希望大
> 家捧个场，如果有这种需求的介绍给她。
Ubuntu默认就是gnome
建议也用konqueror和webkit的测试测试