2008年05月27日 星期二 15:21
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2008年05月27日 星期二 15:31
用CT的标准去衡量Yahoo,信息量还是不够丰富。我觉得这个问题并不是很重要,反正我自己都不看新浪的首页-。- 需要的人会看的,而且这种人在中国很多很多…… On 5/27/08, Xia Qingran <qingran在zeuux.org> wrote: > > 原文见: > > http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/ > > > Why do most Chinese sites look like crap? May 26th, 2008 · 13 Comments<http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comments> > > [I wish this post contained all sorts of "a-ha!" insights. Instead, I hope > it simply frames some questions that I find interesting]. > > Whenever I show Chinese websites to American friends who don't speak > Chinese, the friends universally have the same reaction — "Wow! That site > sure is crappy-looking! Guess those guys haven't learned how to design a > good website yet, huh?" > > I made the same mistake myself when I moved to Beijing 4 years ago, fresh > from the "cutting-edge" of web design in the Bay Area. "Surely," I thought, > "my superior design sensibility is a key ingredient to why I'll be > successful building B2C websites in China!" > > Boy, was I wrong. > > In case you don't know what I'm talking about, look at the home page of > China's most-popular website (all of these screen shots are a bit old, but > things haven't changed much). You can click on the image to see it in > detail. > > > <http://www.melcherruwart.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/sina-home-page.jpg> > > Above is the home page of Sina.com, showing just what you can see "above > the fold" (in other words, without scrolling down). > > Now, here's the above-the-fold home page of my favorite American news site: > > > <http://www.melcherruwart.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/ny-times-home-page.jpg> > > For those of you who might argue that Sina is a "portal" and not really a > news site, here's the above-the-fold home page of most popular portal site > in the US: > > > <http://www.melcherruwart.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/yahoo-home-page.jpg> > > In addition to preferring higher information density per square inch, > Chinese readers also seem to prefer higher density per page view. Once > again, here's the home page of Yahoo, showing the entire home page. > > > <http://www.melcherruwart.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/yahoo-home-page-long.jpg> > > Here's the full-length home page of Sina.com, from the same day: > > > <http://www.melcherruwart.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/sina-home-page-long.jpg> > > In case my point isn't clear, below I've placed the full-length web pages > of the three sites side-by-side, to scale: > > > <http://www.melcherruwart.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/yahoo-vs-nyt-vs-sina.jpg> > > Most Americans are by now nodding their heads: "Yep. Love those US sites. > Much more advanced. Clean, simple design. Not cluttered. Guess those Chinese > guys will figure that out sooner or later." > > What's fascinating is that my Chinese friends have a very different take on > the US sites: "They look skimpy, and empty. Where's all the content?? The > home page is just navigation." > > After talking about this issue with many friends, it appears that Chinese > and American (I won't say "Western" since I don't know much about Europeans) > look at/read websites in very different ways. [To forestall critics, when I > say "Americans" I mean native English speakers and readers who live in > America, even though there are obviously many Americans who don't speak > English natively]. > > While it's clear that both peoples "scan," and then only sometimes "read", > the way they scan is very different. Chinese people strongly prefer a > density that is far beyond what most Americans can tolerate. In addition, > Chinese people seem to be scanning for keywords (or more precisely > "key-characters"), while Americans like to read "headlines" (aka short pithy > phrases) and look at arresting photos. > > So here's my question: "Do Chinese online users and American online users > scan/read web pages differently? if so, why? What does that mean for online > business?" > > It turns out that no one seems to know the answer. I asked Jakob Nielsen<http://www.useit.com/>, > the famous web usability expert, if he knew of any research on this topic. > His simple answer: "No." He suggested I attend his upcoming usability > workshop, which looks cool but is (a) beyond my price point and (b) > potentially not relevant for the Chinese market (which is the whole point of > this post). > > I can't find anyone, anywhere, who is researching this question. If you > know someone, please let me know. > > I would LOVE to have someone do real research into this issue, using the > latest eye-tracking technology. I might even have (gasp!) a shoestring > budget to fund this. I've approached a friend at the Chinese Central Arts > University, but they don't have the technology. Any takers?? > > In the meantime, some of my own thoughts on this issue. > > First, I decided to compare newspaper front pages in China and the US. i > figured that this comparison would yield the same enormous differences in > information density. I remembered that Chinese newspapers from years ago > were really dense visually. Much to my surprise, though, there are no longer > vast differences between the layout and visual density of the top Beijing > newspapers and English-language newspapers in New York. > > I found this fascinating. Why are the designs of the front pages of the > major daily newspapers converging, while the website home pages are not? > Does this mean that Chinese newspapers are more, or less, in touch with how > their readers want to read? > > Then I started to think about what might explain the differences online, > since they seem to exist only there. Said another way, are there unique > "online" circumstances in China that might be influencing home page design? > > I think the answer is yes. > > In the US, online advertising is (mostly) sold by "page view". For example, > an advertiser buys a certain amount of page views over time. In China, most > online advertising is still sold by time-period, as in "buy an ad on the > home page for one month." > > As I thought it through, I realized that these different pricing > methodologies created different incentives. In the US, you want "more page > views per visit", because that's how you create advertising inventory. In > China, you create more advertising inventory by making your home page > longer. > > Is this the explanation?? If so, does this mean that when (if?) China moves > to a per-impression model, home pages will get shorter and less dense? Or > has the online audience in China become accustomed to super-high density? If > so, then how come newspapers are no longer as dense as they were? > > By now I hope you're starting to find these questions as interesting as I > find them. I'd love to hear what you think! > > *Tags:* Chinese internet explained<http://www.melcherruwart.com/category/chinese-internet-explained/> > 13 responses so far ↓ > > - > > 1<http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-142> > *John <http://www.sinosplice.com/life/> *// May 26, 2008 at 7:53 pm > > It is an interesting question. You're right that you aren't the first > to notice this, but given the keywords involved, it's a bit problematic to > search for the topic. Here are a few other commentaries: > > http://www.churbuck.com/wordpress/?p=540 > > http://reganmian.net/blog/2007/09/30/website-design-in-china/ > > http://www.virtual-china.org/2006/03/30/aesthetics-of-abundance/ > - > > 2<http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-148> > *Florian Pihs <http://longmarch.chinalytics.com/> *// May 27, 2008 at > 12:17 am > > Thanks Melcher. Interesting post. I have asked myself the same > questions hundreds of times. While we see Chinese users engage with websites > differently that their western counterparts, basic web design principles > remain intact (but are largely ignored by most local sites) e.g. there is no > engagement after the 3rd screen, but pages are still 5-6 screens long. Blame > it on Sina or the lack of usability research. > - > > 3<http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-155> > *Fons Tuinstra <http://www.chinaherald.net/> *// May 27, 2008 at 4:45 > am > > I think you are touching here on a key discussion: it is about what > your readers want, how to they absorb their information and what is the best > way to get a message across. > I do not have a clear answer, but I had some weeks ago an interesting > discussion with the chief-editor of the website of the largest broadsheet in > Poland: > > http://witeam.blogspot.com/2008/04/observation-scrolling-no-longer-problem.html > They had done some research, eye-tracking stuff, and discovered that > some of the standard assumption on how people read a website had change over > the years. Scrolling (a nono in traditional webdesign) did not seem to be a > problem and people did not read anymore from the top-left corner downwards. > Our unproven assumption was then that this might be a generational > transition where an increasing number of readers did not have been > conditioned to read traditional newspapers anymore, but were open for > different ways of reading. > In China, where internet users are relative young and mostly not > trained (old) newspaper readers the old way of conditioning reading habits > might never have had a root to start with. > - > > 4<http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-156> > *tmelcher *// May 27, 2008 at 5:58 am > > Thanks very much for these great comments, and links to articles on the > same subject. I'd love to find more people interested in this subject! > - > > 5<http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-157> > *Paul Denlinger <http://www.chinavortex.com/> *// May 27, 2008 at 8:51 > am > > Here is my guess. > I think that Sina, Sohu and Netease still have to accomodate many new > users, and they are not comfortable clicking through to new pages or > inputting Chinese into search boxes. Instead, they prefer to click directly > on text links of what they want to read. This forces as much content as > possible up to the top-level of the major websites. > >From an aesthetics point of view, it is not pretty. But it works in > China. > - > > 6<http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-158> > *Kaiser Kuo <http://digitalwatch.ogilvy.com.cn/en> *// May 27, 2008 at > 9:04 am > > When I was editor-in-chief of a site here in China back in 1999, I > hired a Danish Web designer who built what I thought was a nice, clean, > elegant interface–which, of course, elicited confused "where's the content?" > from our Chinese staff. Eric Rosenblum, who was COO of the company, was > initially with me on the design issue, having a preference for clean. But > then a friend of his straightened him out. "Look at the Chinese retail > experience," Eric relayed to me. "Chinese shoppers want abundance, things > falling off the shells and piled up in the aisles. It makes it feel like > there's a sale on." He suggested that this experience preference translates > well onto the web as well. He may be right! Anyway, a heat mapping study > would be great. I have a hunch — totally unsupported, of course — that when > native readers of Chinese take in text, it's in a very different way than > English readers do, and there's simply more tolerance for what English > readers see as clutter. > - > > 7<http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-159> > *Thijs *// May 27, 2008 at 9:36 am > > I've looked into this only on the surface level; and if you look at > pageview time, the chinese websites have much higher values. I've also seen > some heatmapping done before and people have issues "finding" information, > which may contribute to the viewing time. Whether or not this leads to a > more "pleasing" experience, I would not be able to say. I think part of it > is just, what people are used to (habits) and not what would be the best > design. > - > > 8<http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-162> > *Gemme <http://www.chinasnippets.com/> *// May 27, 2008 at 10:27 am > > A user behavior study would indeed be great. Like many other commenters > I have struggled with the concept behind all the cluttered pages. Especially > in cases that I had to advice clients on this. Do we go Chinese or do we go > Western. > > My take is that it will depend on the kind of website what will be the > best. Is it information, is it e-commerce, is it entertainment or else. My > hunch is it that it will also change over time. > > One reason, like you mentioned, would be that the dated "advertising > per day" model (no incentive to change as a longer page can carry more ads) > will be replaced with more mature models that actually convert. > Another reason would be the evolvement of design, there's aready a lot > of the so called web 2.0 design happening. > > I asked a company that actually does user behavior and eye tracking > testing but for now their Chinese office doesn' do this yet as it's very > expensive and clients are'nt yet at the stage that they see the benefit. > > I only know of one Chinese eyetracking study but this once was focused > on the difference of behavior on Baidu and Google, see > http://www.enquiroresearch.com/chinese-search-engine-engagement.aspx . > Very intersting but unfortunately the Baidu and Google homepages have a > rather clean lay out so they may not help too much here. > - > > 9<http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-166> > *Paul Denlinger <http://www.chinavortex.com/> *// May 27, 2008 at 12:29 > pm > > It would be interesting to study how eye-tracking behavior works > differently in east and west. If you look at magazine layouts in Taiwan, > Japan and Korea, you will see the same in your face cluttered layouts. > - > > 10<http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-167> > *cerebus <http://aityt.blogspot.com/> *// May 27, 2008 at 12:40 pm > > I've always wondered why Chinese websites always open links in a new > window (unless you specify tabs in your browser). My theory is that one > reason for the clutter is that there isn't a culture of consumer complaints > in China: no proper feedback mechanism. So although people might find it > annoying, they'll be hard-pressed to actually complain. It always seems to > me Chinese websites just aren't considerate, and want to take over your > whole screen and browser with floating flash ads and pop-ups. TV does the > same: it's not uncommon to see the same ad three or four times in a row. I > don't think arguments about Chinese consumer expectations hold water: more > likely Chinese advertiser expectations are to blame. The old story: you only > need to sell something once to every Chinese person and you'll be a > millionaire. Who cares if some people are annoyed? They're not going to > complain anyway. > > (Please don't attack the obvious generalizations in this opinion. > Rather address the questions. I thank you in advance.) > - > > 11<http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-173> > *tmelcher *// May 27, 2008 at 1:58 pm > > Cerebus, > > Thanks for the comment. Too bad your blog is blocked from Beijing! > > I don't quite agree about the culture of no consumer complaints here. I > hear Chinese colleagues bitching about consumer experiences all the time, > and the BBSes are full of horror stories. And lately more companies seem to > be taking notice. > > Based on talking with Chinese friends, it seems they really do prefer > highly-dense presentation. Other posters here have called it a "theory of > abundance", which is an interesting metaphor. > > Bottom line is that I don't know. But I've seen too many foreign web > companies come to China and make mistakes from day one by assuming "good web > design" is global… > > Thanks again! > - > > 12<http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-174> > *Robert Ness <http://www.jobdou.com/> *// May 27, 2008 at 2:02 pm > > I think you are right on the money with the advertising argument. It > all comes down to a sales person saying–"your ad gets on the front page of > Sina". > > Let's not forget about the simple power of doing things the way people > have been doing it before you. Sina was one of the first big internet > successes in China, so most new websites aren't going to question the wisdom > of their UI design. And when your a media buyer who is accountable to a > boss, which is easier to say if things don't go well, "I placed the ad on > the front page of Sina!" or "I placed the ad on an archived page that gets > high page views from search engine users searching for relevant keywords!" > > Let's avoid the trap of explaining things with culture instead of > explicit motivations. > - > > 13<http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-178> > *tmelcher *// May 27, 2008 at 2:28 pm > > Robert, > > I love what you wrote: "avoid the trap of explaining things with > culture instead of explicit motivations". sounds like the inside of a > fortune cookie. Seriously. I've also thought that basic motivations (such as > makin' money) usually trump more-subtle ones… > > > -- > 夏清然 > Xia Qingranqingran在zeuux.org > > > _______________________________________________ > zeuux-universe mailing list > zeuux-universe在zeuux.org > http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe > > ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society! > http://www.zeuux.org > -- Julien, GONG Min clie.com.cn/blog Google Talk: Julien.Gong在gmail.com MSN: gongmin在x263.net Sina UC: 103327 Tel: +8610 6267 5933 -------------- 下一部分 -------------- 一个HTML附件被移除... 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2008年05月27日 星期二 15:34
网页价值观差异,没有什么问题。他口中的crap在我们眼中并不是crap,就这么简单。他要是看到QQ的用户行为的话,肯定会疯掉的~~ 2008/5/27 Julien GONG Min (Gmail) <julien.gong at gmail.com>: > 用CT的标准去衡量Yahoo,信息量还是不够丰富。我觉得这个问题并不是很重要,反正我自己都不看新浪的首页-。- > 需要的人会看的,而且这种人在中国很多很多…… > > On 5/27/08, Xia Qingran <qingran at zeuux.org> wrote: >> >> 原文见: >> >> http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/ >> >> >> Why do most Chinese sites look like crap? >> >> May 26th, 2008 · 13 Comments >> >> [I wish this post contained all sorts of "a-ha!" insights. Instead, I hope >> it simply frames some questions that I find interesting]. >> >> Whenever I show Chinese websites to American friends who don't speak >> Chinese, the friends universally have the same reaction — "Wow! That site >> sure is crappy-looking! Guess those guys haven't learned how to design a >> good website yet, huh?" >> >> I made the same mistake myself when I moved to Beijing 4 years ago, fresh >> from the "cutting-edge" of web design in the Bay Area. "Surely," I thought, >> "my superior design sensibility is a key ingredient to why I'll be >> successful building B2C websites in China!" >> >> Boy, was I wrong. >> >> In case you don't know what I'm talking about, look at the home page of >> China's most-popular website (all of these screen shots are a bit old, but >> things haven't changed much). You can click on the image to see it in >> detail. >> >> Above is the home page of Sina.com, showing just what you can see "above >> the fold" (in other words, without scrolling down). >> >> Now, here's the above-the-fold home page of my favorite American news >> site: >> >> For those of you who might argue that Sina is a "portal" and not really a >> news site, here's the above-the-fold home page of most popular portal site >> in the US: >> >> In addition to preferring higher information density per square inch, >> Chinese readers also seem to prefer higher density per page view. Once >> again, here's the home page of Yahoo, showing the entire home page. >> >> Here's the full-length home page of Sina.com, from the same day: >> >> In case my point isn't clear, below I've placed the full-length web pages >> of the three sites side-by-side, to scale: >> >> Most Americans are by now nodding their heads: "Yep. Love those US sites. >> Much more advanced. Clean, simple design. Not cluttered. Guess those Chinese >> guys will figure that out sooner or later." >> >> What's fascinating is that my Chinese friends have a very different take >> on the US sites: "They look skimpy, and empty. Where's all the content?? The >> home page is just navigation." >> >> After talking about this issue with many friends, it appears that Chinese >> and American (I won't say "Western" since I don't know much about Europeans) >> look at/read websites in very different ways. [To forestall critics, when I >> say "Americans" I mean native English speakers and readers who live in >> America, even though there are obviously many Americans who don't speak >> English natively]. >> >> While it's clear that both peoples "scan," and then only sometimes "read", >> the way they scan is very different. Chinese people strongly prefer a >> density that is far beyond what most Americans can tolerate. In addition, >> Chinese people seem to be scanning for keywords (or more precisely >> "key-characters"), while Americans like to read "headlines" (aka short pithy >> phrases) and look at arresting photos. >> >> So here's my question: "Do Chinese online users and American online users >> scan/read web pages differently? if so, why? What does that mean for online >> business?" >> >> It turns out that no one seems to know the answer. I asked Jakob Nielsen, >> the famous web usability expert, if he knew of any research on this topic. >> His simple answer: "No." He suggested I attend his upcoming usability >> workshop, which looks cool but is (a) beyond my price point and (b) >> potentially not relevant for the Chinese market (which is the whole point of >> this post). >> >> I can't find anyone, anywhere, who is researching this question. If you >> know someone, please let me know. >> >> I would LOVE to have someone do real research into this issue, using the >> latest eye-tracking technology. I might even have (gasp!) a shoestring >> budget to fund this. I've approached a friend at the Chinese Central Arts >> University, but they don't have the technology. Any takers?? >> >> In the meantime, some of my own thoughts on this issue. >> >> First, I decided to compare newspaper front pages in China and the US. i >> figured that this comparison would yield the same enormous differences in >> information density. I remembered that Chinese newspapers from years ago >> were really dense visually. Much to my surprise, though, there are no longer >> vast differences between the layout and visual density of the top Beijing >> newspapers and English-language newspapers in New York. >> >> I found this fascinating. Why are the designs of the front pages of the >> major daily newspapers converging, while the website home pages are not? >> Does this mean that Chinese newspapers are more, or less, in touch with how >> their readers want to read? >> >> Then I started to think about what might explain the differences online, >> since they seem to exist only there. Said another way, are there unique >> "online" circumstances in China that might be influencing home page design? >> >> I think the answer is yes. >> >> In the US, online advertising is (mostly) sold by "page view". For >> example, an advertiser buys a certain amount of page views over time. In >> China, most online advertising is still sold by time-period, as in "buy an >> ad on the home page for one month." >> >> As I thought it through, I realized that these different pricing >> methodologies created different incentives. In the US, you want "more page >> views per visit", because that's how you create advertising inventory. In >> China, you create more advertising inventory by making your home page >> longer. >> >> Is this the explanation?? If so, does this mean that when (if?) China >> moves to a per-impression model, home pages will get shorter and less dense? >> Or has the online audience in China become accustomed to super-high density? >> If so, then how come newspapers are no longer as dense as they were? >> >> By now I hope you're starting to find these questions as interesting as I >> find them. I'd love to hear what you think! >> >> Tags: Chinese internet explained >> >> 13 responses so far ↓ >> >> 1 John // May 26, 2008 at 7:53 pm >> >> It is an interesting question. You're right that you aren't the first to >> notice this, but given the keywords involved, it's a bit problematic to >> search for the topic. Here are a few other commentaries: >> >> http://www.churbuck.com/wordpress/?p=540 >> >> http://reganmian.net/blog/2007/09/30/website-design-in-china/ >> >> http://www.virtual-china.org/2006/03/30/aesthetics-of-abundance/ >> >> 2 Florian Pihs // May 27, 2008 at 12:17 am >> >> Thanks Melcher. Interesting post. I have asked myself the same questions >> hundreds of times. While we see Chinese users engage with websites >> differently that their western counterparts, basic web design principles >> remain intact (but are largely ignored by most local sites) e.g. there is no >> engagement after the 3rd screen, but pages are still 5-6 screens long. Blame >> it on Sina or the lack of usability research. >> >> 3 Fons Tuinstra // May 27, 2008 at 4:45 am >> >> I think you are touching here on a key discussion: it is about what your >> readers want, how to they absorb their information and what is the best way >> to get a message across. >> I do not have a clear answer, but I had some weeks ago an interesting >> discussion with the chief-editor of the website of the largest broadsheet in >> Poland: >> >> http://witeam.blogspot.com/2008/04/observation-scrolling-no-longer-problem.html >> They had done some research, eye-tracking stuff, and discovered that some >> of the standard assumption on how people read a website had change over the >> years. Scrolling (a nono in traditional webdesign) did not seem to be a >> problem and people did not read anymore from the top-left corner downwards. >> Our unproven assumption was then that this might be a generational >> transition where an increasing number of readers did not have been >> conditioned to read traditional newspapers anymore, but were open for >> different ways of reading. >> In China, where internet users are relative young and mostly not trained >> (old) newspaper readers the old way of conditioning reading habits might >> never have had a root to start with. >> >> 4 tmelcher // May 27, 2008 at 5:58 am >> >> Thanks very much for these great comments, and links to articles on the >> same subject. I'd love to find more people interested in this subject! >> >> 5 Paul Denlinger // May 27, 2008 at 8:51 am >> >> Here is my guess. >> I think that Sina, Sohu and Netease still have to accomodate many new >> users, and they are not comfortable clicking through to new pages or >> inputting Chinese into search boxes. Instead, they prefer to click directly >> on text links of what they want to read. This forces as much content as >> possible up to the top-level of the major websites. >> >From an aesthetics point of view, it is not pretty. But it works in >> China. >> >> 6 Kaiser Kuo // May 27, 2008 at 9:04 am >> >> When I was editor-in-chief of a site here in China back in 1999, I hired a >> Danish Web designer who built what I thought was a nice, clean, elegant >> interface–which, of course, elicited confused "where's the content?" from >> our Chinese staff. Eric Rosenblum, who was COO of the company, was initially >> with me on the design issue, having a preference for clean. But then a >> friend of his straightened him out. "Look at the Chinese retail experience," >> Eric relayed to me. "Chinese shoppers want abundance, things falling off the >> shells and piled up in the aisles. It makes it feel like there's a sale on." >> He suggested that this experience preference translates well onto the web as >> well. He may be right! Anyway, a heat mapping study would be great. I have a >> hunch — totally unsupported, of course — that when native readers of Chinese >> take in text, it's in a very different way than English readers do, and >> there's simply more tolerance for what English readers see as clutter. >> >> 7 Thijs // May 27, 2008 at 9:36 am >> >> I've looked into this only on the surface level; and if you look at >> pageview time, the chinese websites have much higher values. I've also seen >> some heatmapping done before and people have issues "finding" information, >> which may contribute to the viewing time. Whether or not this leads to a >> more "pleasing" experience, I would not be able to say. I think part of it >> is just, what people are used to (habits) and not what would be the best >> design. >> >> 8 Gemme // May 27, 2008 at 10:27 am >> >> A user behavior study would indeed be great. Like many other commenters I >> have struggled with the concept behind all the cluttered pages. Especially >> in cases that I had to advice clients on this. Do we go Chinese or do we go >> Western. >> >> My take is that it will depend on the kind of website what will be the >> best. Is it information, is it e-commerce, is it entertainment or else. My >> hunch is it that it will also change over time. >> >> One reason, like you mentioned, would be that the dated "advertising per >> day" model (no incentive to change as a longer page can carry more ads) will >> be replaced with more mature models that actually convert. >> Another reason would be the evolvement of design, there's aready a lot of >> the so called web 2.0 design happening. >> >> I asked a company that actually does user behavior and eye tracking >> testing but for now their Chinese office doesn' do this yet as it's very >> expensive and clients are'nt yet at the stage that they see the benefit. >> >> I only know of one Chinese eyetracking study but this once was focused on >> the difference of behavior on Baidu and Google, see >> http://www.enquiroresearch.com/chinese-search-engine-engagement.aspx . >> Very intersting but unfortunately the Baidu and Google homepages have a >> rather clean lay out so they may not help too much here. >> >> 9 Paul Denlinger // May 27, 2008 at 12:29 pm >> >> It would be interesting to study how eye-tracking behavior works >> differently in east and west. If you look at magazine layouts in Taiwan, >> Japan and Korea, you will see the same in your face cluttered layouts. >> >> 10 cerebus // May 27, 2008 at 12:40 pm >> >> I've always wondered why Chinese websites always open links in a new >> window (unless you specify tabs in your browser). My theory is that one >> reason for the clutter is that there isn't a culture of consumer complaints >> in China: no proper feedback mechanism. So although people might find it >> annoying, they'll be hard-pressed to actually complain. It always seems to >> me Chinese websites just aren't considerate, and want to take over your >> whole screen and browser with floating flash ads and pop-ups. TV does the >> same: it's not uncommon to see the same ad three or four times in a row. I >> don't think arguments about Chinese consumer expectations hold water: more >> likely Chinese advertiser expectations are to blame. The old story: you only >> need to sell something once to every Chinese person and you'll be a >> millionaire. Who cares if some people are annoyed? They're not going to >> complain anyway. >> >> (Please don't attack the obvious generalizations in this opinion. Rather >> address the questions. I thank you in advance.) >> >> 11 tmelcher // May 27, 2008 at 1:58 pm >> >> Cerebus, >> >> Thanks for the comment. Too bad your blog is blocked from Beijing! >> >> I don't quite agree about the culture of no consumer complaints here. I >> hear Chinese colleagues bitching about consumer experiences all the time, >> and the BBSes are full of horror stories. And lately more companies seem to >> be taking notice. >> >> Based on talking with Chinese friends, it seems they really do prefer >> highly-dense presentation. Other posters here have called it a "theory of >> abundance", which is an interesting metaphor. >> >> Bottom line is that I don't know. But I've seen too many foreign web >> companies come to China and make mistakes from day one by assuming "good web >> design" is global… >> >> Thanks again! >> >> 12 Robert Ness // May 27, 2008 at 2:02 pm >> >> I think you are right on the money with the advertising argument. It all >> comes down to a sales person saying–"your ad gets on the front page of >> Sina". >> >> Let's not forget about the simple power of doing things the way people >> have been doing it before you. Sina was one of the first big internet >> successes in China, so most new websites aren't going to question the wisdom >> of their UI design. And when your a media buyer who is accountable to a >> boss, which is easier to say if things don't go well, "I placed the ad on >> the front page of Sina!" or "I placed the ad on an archived page that gets >> high page views from search engine users searching for relevant keywords!" >> >> Let's avoid the trap of explaining things with culture instead of explicit >> motivations. >> >> 13 tmelcher // May 27, 2008 at 2:28 pm >> >> Robert, >> >> I love what you wrote: "avoid the trap of explaining things with culture >> instead of explicit motivations". sounds like the inside of a fortune >> cookie. Seriously. I've also thought that basic motivations (such as makin' >> money) usually trump more-subtle ones… >> >> -- >> 夏清然 >> Xia Qingran >> qingran at zeuux.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> zeuux-universe mailing list >> zeuux-universe at zeuux.org >> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe >> >> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society! >> http://www.zeuux.org > > > > -- > Julien, GONG Min > clie.com.cn/blog > > Google Talk: Julien.Gong at gmail.com > MSN: gongmin at x263.net > Sina UC: 103327 > Tel: +8610 6267 5933 > _______________________________________________ > zeuux-universe mailing list > zeuux-universe at zeuux.org > http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe > > ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society! > http://www.zeuux.org > -- Best Regards Harry Li
2008年05月27日 星期二 15:37
Harry Li wrote: > 网页价值观差异,没有什么问题。他口中的crap在我们眼中并不是crap,就这么简单。 > 他要是看到QQ的用户行为的话,肯定会疯掉的~~ > 哈,这句话比较经典:D > 2008/5/27 Julien GONG Min (Gmail) <julien.gong at gmail.com>: > >> 用CT的标准去衡量Yahoo,信息量还是不够丰富。我觉得这个问题并不是很重要,反正我自己都不看新浪的首页-。- >> 需要的人会看的,而且这种人在中国很多很多…… >> >> On 5/27/08, Xia Qingran <qingran at zeuux.org> wrote: >> >>> 原文见: >>> >>> http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/ >>> >>> >>> Why do most Chinese sites look like crap? >>> >>> May 26th, 2008 · 13 Comments >>> >>> [I wish this post contained all sorts of "a-ha!" insights. Instead, I hope >>> it simply frames some questions that I find interesting]. >>> >>> Whenever I show Chinese websites to American friends who don't speak >>> Chinese, the friends universally have the same reaction — "Wow! That site >>> sure is crappy-looking! Guess those guys haven't learned how to design a >>> good website yet, huh?" >>> >>> I made the same mistake myself when I moved to Beijing 4 years ago, fresh >>> from the "cutting-edge" of web design in the Bay Area. "Surely," I thought, >>> "my superior design sensibility is a key ingredient to why I'll be >>> successful building B2C websites in China!" >>> >>> Boy, was I wrong. >>> >>> In case you don't know what I'm talking about, look at the home page of >>> China's most-popular website (all of these screen shots are a bit old, but >>> things haven't changed much). You can click on the image to see it in >>> detail. >>> >>> Above is the home page of Sina.com, showing just what you can see "above >>> the fold" (in other words, without scrolling down). >>> >>> Now, here's the above-the-fold home page of my favorite American news >>> site: >>> >>> For those of you who might argue that Sina is a "portal" and not really a >>> news site, here's the above-the-fold home page of most popular portal site >>> in the US: >>> >>> In addition to preferring higher information density per square inch, >>> Chinese readers also seem to prefer higher density per page view. Once >>> again, here's the home page of Yahoo, showing the entire home page. >>> >>> Here's the full-length home page of Sina.com, from the same day: >>> >>> In case my point isn't clear, below I've placed the full-length web pages >>> of the three sites side-by-side, to scale: >>> >>> Most Americans are by now nodding their heads: "Yep. Love those US sites. >>> Much more advanced. Clean, simple design. Not cluttered. Guess those Chinese >>> guys will figure that out sooner or later." >>> >>> What's fascinating is that my Chinese friends have a very different take >>> on the US sites: "They look skimpy, and empty. Where's all the content?? The >>> home page is just navigation." >>> >>> After talking about this issue with many friends, it appears that Chinese >>> and American (I won't say "Western" since I don't know much about Europeans) >>> look at/read websites in very different ways. [To forestall critics, when I >>> say "Americans" I mean native English speakers and readers who live in >>> America, even though there are obviously many Americans who don't speak >>> English natively]. >>> >>> While it's clear that both peoples "scan," and then only sometimes "read", >>> the way they scan is very different. Chinese people strongly prefer a >>> density that is far beyond what most Americans can tolerate. In addition, >>> Chinese people seem to be scanning for keywords (or more precisely >>> "key-characters"), while Americans like to read "headlines" (aka short pithy >>> phrases) and look at arresting photos. >>> >>> So here's my question: "Do Chinese online users and American online users >>> scan/read web pages differently? if so, why? What does that mean for online >>> business?" >>> >>> It turns out that no one seems to know the answer. I asked Jakob Nielsen, >>> the famous web usability expert, if he knew of any research on this topic. >>> His simple answer: "No." He suggested I attend his upcoming usability >>> workshop, which looks cool but is (a) beyond my price point and (b) >>> potentially not relevant for the Chinese market (which is the whole point of >>> this post). >>> >>> I can't find anyone, anywhere, who is researching this question. If you >>> know someone, please let me know. >>> >>> I would LOVE to have someone do real research into this issue, using the >>> latest eye-tracking technology. I might even have (gasp!) a shoestring >>> budget to fund this. I've approached a friend at the Chinese Central Arts >>> University, but they don't have the technology. Any takers?? >>> >>> In the meantime, some of my own thoughts on this issue. >>> >>> First, I decided to compare newspaper front pages in China and the US. i >>> figured that this comparison would yield the same enormous differences in >>> information density. I remembered that Chinese newspapers from years ago >>> were really dense visually. Much to my surprise, though, there are no longer >>> vast differences between the layout and visual density of the top Beijing >>> newspapers and English-language newspapers in New York. >>> >>> I found this fascinating. Why are the designs of the front pages of the >>> major daily newspapers converging, while the website home pages are not? >>> Does this mean that Chinese newspapers are more, or less, in touch with how >>> their readers want to read? >>> >>> Then I started to think about what might explain the differences online, >>> since they seem to exist only there. Said another way, are there unique >>> "online" circumstances in China that might be influencing home page design? >>> >>> I think the answer is yes. >>> >>> In the US, online advertising is (mostly) sold by "page view". For >>> example, an advertiser buys a certain amount of page views over time. In >>> China, most online advertising is still sold by time-period, as in "buy an >>> ad on the home page for one month." >>> >>> As I thought it through, I realized that these different pricing >>> methodologies created different incentives. In the US, you want "more page >>> views per visit", because that's how you create advertising inventory. In >>> China, you create more advertising inventory by making your home page >>> longer. >>> >>> Is this the explanation?? If so, does this mean that when (if?) China >>> moves to a per-impression model, home pages will get shorter and less dense? >>> Or has the online audience in China become accustomed to super-high density? >>> If so, then how come newspapers are no longer as dense as they were? >>> >>> By now I hope you're starting to find these questions as interesting as I >>> find them. I'd love to hear what you think! >>> >>> Tags: Chinese internet explained >>> >>> 13 responses so far ↓ >>> >>> 1 John // May 26, 2008 at 7:53 pm >>> >>> It is an interesting question. You're right that you aren't the first to >>> notice this, but given the keywords involved, it's a bit problematic to >>> search for the topic. Here are a few other commentaries: >>> >>> http://www.churbuck.com/wordpress/?p=540 >>> >>> http://reganmian.net/blog/2007/09/30/website-design-in-china/ >>> >>> http://www.virtual-china.org/2006/03/30/aesthetics-of-abundance/ >>> >>> 2 Florian Pihs // May 27, 2008 at 12:17 am >>> >>> Thanks Melcher. Interesting post. I have asked myself the same questions >>> hundreds of times. While we see Chinese users engage with websites >>> differently that their western counterparts, basic web design principles >>> remain intact (but are largely ignored by most local sites) e.g. there is no >>> engagement after the 3rd screen, but pages are still 5-6 screens long. Blame >>> it on Sina or the lack of usability research. >>> >>> 3 Fons Tuinstra // May 27, 2008 at 4:45 am >>> >>> I think you are touching here on a key discussion: it is about what your >>> readers want, how to they absorb their information and what is the best way >>> to get a message across. >>> I do not have a clear answer, but I had some weeks ago an interesting >>> discussion with the chief-editor of the website of the largest broadsheet in >>> Poland: >>> >>> http://witeam.blogspot.com/2008/04/observation-scrolling-no-longer-problem.html >>> They had done some research, eye-tracking stuff, and discovered that some >>> of the standard assumption on how people read a website had change over the >>> years. Scrolling (a nono in traditional webdesign) did not seem to be a >>> problem and people did not read anymore from the top-left corner downwards. >>> Our unproven assumption was then that this might be a generational >>> transition where an increasing number of readers did not have been >>> conditioned to read traditional newspapers anymore, but were open for >>> different ways of reading. >>> In China, where internet users are relative young and mostly not trained >>> (old) newspaper readers the old way of conditioning reading habits might >>> never have had a root to start with. >>> >>> 4 tmelcher // May 27, 2008 at 5:58 am >>> >>> Thanks very much for these great comments, and links to articles on the >>> same subject. I'd love to find more people interested in this subject! >>> >>> 5 Paul Denlinger // May 27, 2008 at 8:51 am >>> >>> Here is my guess. >>> I think that Sina, Sohu and Netease still have to accomodate many new >>> users, and they are not comfortable clicking through to new pages or >>> inputting Chinese into search boxes. Instead, they prefer to click directly >>> on text links of what they want to read. This forces as much content as >>> possible up to the top-level of the major websites. >>> >From an aesthetics point of view, it is not pretty. But it works in >>> China. >>> >>> 6 Kaiser Kuo // May 27, 2008 at 9:04 am >>> >>> When I was editor-in-chief of a site here in China back in 1999, I hired a >>> Danish Web designer who built what I thought was a nice, clean, elegant >>> interface–which, of course, elicited confused "where's the content?" from >>> our Chinese staff. Eric Rosenblum, who was COO of the company, was initially >>> with me on the design issue, having a preference for clean. But then a >>> friend of his straightened him out. "Look at the Chinese retail experience," >>> Eric relayed to me. "Chinese shoppers want abundance, things falling off the >>> shells and piled up in the aisles. It makes it feel like there's a sale on." >>> He suggested that this experience preference translates well onto the web as >>> well. He may be right! Anyway, a heat mapping study would be great. I have a >>> hunch — totally unsupported, of course — that when native readers of Chinese >>> take in text, it's in a very different way than English readers do, and >>> there's simply more tolerance for what English readers see as clutter. >>> >>> 7 Thijs // May 27, 2008 at 9:36 am >>> >>> I've looked into this only on the surface level; and if you look at >>> pageview time, the chinese websites have much higher values. I've also seen >>> some heatmapping done before and people have issues "finding" information, >>> which may contribute to the viewing time. Whether or not this leads to a >>> more "pleasing" experience, I would not be able to say. I think part of it >>> is just, what people are used to (habits) and not what would be the best >>> design. >>> >>> 8 Gemme // May 27, 2008 at 10:27 am >>> >>> A user behavior study would indeed be great. Like many other commenters I >>> have struggled with the concept behind all the cluttered pages. Especially >>> in cases that I had to advice clients on this. Do we go Chinese or do we go >>> Western. >>> >>> My take is that it will depend on the kind of website what will be the >>> best. Is it information, is it e-commerce, is it entertainment or else. My >>> hunch is it that it will also change over time. >>> >>> One reason, like you mentioned, would be that the dated "advertising per >>> day" model (no incentive to change as a longer page can carry more ads) will >>> be replaced with more mature models that actually convert. >>> Another reason would be the evolvement of design, there's aready a lot of >>> the so called web 2.0 design happening. >>> >>> I asked a company that actually does user behavior and eye tracking >>> testing but for now their Chinese office doesn' do this yet as it's very >>> expensive and clients are'nt yet at the stage that they see the benefit. >>> >>> I only know of one Chinese eyetracking study but this once was focused on >>> the difference of behavior on Baidu and Google, see >>> http://www.enquiroresearch.com/chinese-search-engine-engagement.aspx . >>> Very intersting but unfortunately the Baidu and Google homepages have a >>> rather clean lay out so they may not help too much here. >>> >>> 9 Paul Denlinger // May 27, 2008 at 12:29 pm >>> >>> It would be interesting to study how eye-tracking behavior works >>> differently in east and west. If you look at magazine layouts in Taiwan, >>> Japan and Korea, you will see the same in your face cluttered layouts. >>> >>> 10 cerebus // May 27, 2008 at 12:40 pm >>> >>> I've always wondered why Chinese websites always open links in a new >>> window (unless you specify tabs in your browser). My theory is that one >>> reason for the clutter is that there isn't a culture of consumer complaints >>> in China: no proper feedback mechanism. So although people might find it >>> annoying, they'll be hard-pressed to actually complain. It always seems to >>> me Chinese websites just aren't considerate, and want to take over your >>> whole screen and browser with floating flash ads and pop-ups. TV does the >>> same: it's not uncommon to see the same ad three or four times in a row. I >>> don't think arguments about Chinese consumer expectations hold water: more >>> likely Chinese advertiser expectations are to blame. The old story: you only >>> need to sell something once to every Chinese person and you'll be a >>> millionaire. Who cares if some people are annoyed? They're not going to >>> complain anyway. >>> >>> (Please don't attack the obvious generalizations in this opinion. Rather >>> address the questions. I thank you in advance.) >>> >>> 11 tmelcher // May 27, 2008 at 1:58 pm >>> >>> Cerebus, >>> >>> Thanks for the comment. Too bad your blog is blocked from Beijing! >>> >>> I don't quite agree about the culture of no consumer complaints here. I >>> hear Chinese colleagues bitching about consumer experiences all the time, >>> and the BBSes are full of horror stories. And lately more companies seem to >>> be taking notice. >>> >>> Based on talking with Chinese friends, it seems they really do prefer >>> highly-dense presentation. Other posters here have called it a "theory of >>> abundance", which is an interesting metaphor. >>> >>> Bottom line is that I don't know. But I've seen too many foreign web >>> companies come to China and make mistakes from day one by assuming "good web >>> design" is global… >>> >>> Thanks again! >>> >>> 12 Robert Ness // May 27, 2008 at 2:02 pm >>> >>> I think you are right on the money with the advertising argument. It all >>> comes down to a sales person saying–"your ad gets on the front page of >>> Sina". >>> >>> Let's not forget about the simple power of doing things the way people >>> have been doing it before you. Sina was one of the first big internet >>> successes in China, so most new websites aren't going to question the wisdom >>> of their UI design. And when your a media buyer who is accountable to a >>> boss, which is easier to say if things don't go well, "I placed the ad on >>> the front page of Sina!" or "I placed the ad on an archived page that gets >>> high page views from search engine users searching for relevant keywords!" >>> >>> Let's avoid the trap of explaining things with culture instead of explicit >>> motivations. >>> >>> 13 tmelcher // May 27, 2008 at 2:28 pm >>> >>> Robert, >>> >>> I love what you wrote: "avoid the trap of explaining things with culture >>> instead of explicit motivations". sounds like the inside of a fortune >>> cookie. Seriously. I've also thought that basic motivations (such as makin' >>> money) usually trump more-subtle ones… >>> >>> -- >>> 夏清然 >>> Xia Qingran >>> qingran at zeuux.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> zeuux-universe mailing list >>> zeuux-universe at zeuux.org >>> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe >>> >>> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society! >>> http://www.zeuux.org >>> >> >> -- >> Julien, GONG Min >> clie.com.cn/blog >> >> Google Talk: Julien.Gong at gmail.com >> MSN: gongmin at x263.net >> Sina UC: 103327 >> Tel: +8610 6267 5933 >> _______________________________________________ >> zeuux-universe mailing list >> zeuux-universe at zeuux.org >> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe >> >> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society! >> http://www.zeuux.org >> >> > > > > -- 夏清然 Xia Qingran qingran at zeuux.org
2008年05月27日 星期二 16:09
Xia Qingran 写道: > 原文见: > http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/ > > > Why do most Chinese sites look like crap? 有日本友人问过我这个问题,恰巧举例也是新浪。当时我想了想说,大概中国的网 民还是习惯把这种门户页面当成报纸来看吧。 > > > May 26th, 2008 · 13 Comments > <http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comments> > > [I wish this post contained all sorts of "a-ha!" insights. Instead, I > hope it simply frames some questions that I find interesting]. > > Whenever I show Chinese websites to American friends who don’t speak > Chinese, the friends universally have the same reaction — “Wow! That > site sure is crappy-looking! Guess those guys haven’t learned how to > design a good website yet, huh?” > > I made the same mistake myself when I moved to Beijing 4 years ago, > fresh from the “cutting-edge” of web design in the Bay Area. “Surely,” I > thought, “my superior design sensibility is a key ingredient to why I’ll > be successful building B2C websites in China!” > > Boy, was I wrong. > > In case you don’t know what I’m talking about, look at the home page of > China’s most-popular website (all of these screen shots are a bit old, > but things haven’t changed much). You can click on the image to see it > in detail. > > <http://www.melcherruwart.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/sina-home-page.jpg> > > Above is the home page of Sina.com, showing just what you can see “above > the fold” (in other words, without scrolling down). > > Now, here’s the above-the-fold home page of my favorite American news site: > > <http://www.melcherruwart.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/ny-times-home-page.jpg> > > For those of you who might argue that Sina is a “portal” and not really > a news site, here’s the above-the-fold home page of most popular portal > site in the US: > > <http://www.melcherruwart.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/yahoo-home-page.jpg> > > In addition to preferring higher information density per square inch, > Chinese readers also seem to prefer higher density per page view. Once > again, here’s the home page of Yahoo, showing the entire home page. > > <http://www.melcherruwart.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/yahoo-home-page-long.jpg> > > Here’s the full-length home page of Sina.com, from the same day: > > <http://www.melcherruwart.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/sina-home-page-long.jpg> > > In case my point isn’t clear, below I’ve placed the full-length web > pages of the three sites side-by-side, to scale: > > <http://www.melcherruwart.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/yahoo-vs-nyt-vs-sina.jpg> > > Most Americans are by now nodding their heads: “Yep. Love those US > sites. Much more advanced. Clean, simple design. Not cluttered. Guess > those Chinese guys will figure that out sooner or later.” > > What’s fascinating is that my Chinese friends have a very different take > on the US sites: “They look skimpy, and empty. Where’s all the content?? > The home page is just navigation.” > > After talking about this issue with many friends, it appears that > Chinese and American (I won’t say “Western” since I don’t know much > about Europeans) look at/read websites in very different ways. [To > forestall critics, when I say "Americans" I mean native English speakers > and readers who live in America, even though there are obviously many > Americans who don't speak English natively]. > > While it’s clear that both peoples “scan,” and then only sometimes > “read”, the way they scan is very different. Chinese people strongly > prefer a density that is far beyond what most Americans can tolerate. In > addition, Chinese people seem to be scanning for keywords (or more > precisely “key-characters”), while Americans like to read “headlines” > (aka short pithy phrases) and look at arresting photos. > > So here’s my question: “Do Chinese online users and American online > users scan/read web pages differently? if so, why? What does that mean > for online business?” > > It turns out that no one seems to know the answer. I asked Jakob Nielsen > <http://www.useit.com/>, the famous web usability expert, if he knew of > any research on this topic. His simple answer: “No.” He suggested I > attend his upcoming usability workshop, which looks cool but is (a) > beyond my price point and (b) potentially not relevant for the Chinese > market (which is the whole point of this post). > > I can’t find anyone, anywhere, who is researching this question. If you > know someone, please let me know. > > I would LOVE to have someone do real research into this issue, using the > latest eye-tracking technology. I might even have (gasp!) a shoestring > budget to fund this. I’ve approached a friend at the Chinese Central > Arts University, but they don’t have the technology. Any takers?? > > In the meantime, some of my own thoughts on this issue. > > First, I decided to compare newspaper front pages in China and the US. i > figured that this comparison would yield the same enormous differences > in information density. I remembered that Chinese newspapers from years > ago were really dense visually. Much to my surprise, though, there are > no longer vast differences between the layout and visual density of the > top Beijing newspapers and English-language newspapers in New York. > > I found this fascinating. Why are the designs of the front pages of the > major daily newspapers converging, while the website home pages are not? > Does this mean that Chinese newspapers are more, or less, in touch with > how their readers want to read? > > Then I started to think about what might explain the differences online, > since they seem to exist only there. Said another way, are there unique > “online” circumstances in China that might be influencing home page design? > > I think the answer is yes. > > In the US, online advertising is (mostly) sold by “page view”. For > example, an advertiser buys a certain amount of page views over time. In > China, most online advertising is still sold by time-period, as in “buy > an ad on the home page for one month.” > > As I thought it through, I realized that these different pricing > methodologies created different incentives. In the US, you want “more > page views per visit”, because that’s how you create advertising > inventory. In China, you create more advertising inventory by making > your home page longer. > > Is this the explanation?? If so, does this mean that when (if?) China > moves to a per-impression model, home pages will get shorter and less > dense? Or has the online audience in China become accustomed to > super-high density? If so, then how come newspapers are no longer as > dense as they were? > > By now I hope you’re starting to find these questions as interesting as > I find them. I’d love to hear what you think! > > *Tags:* Chinese internet explained > <http://www.melcherruwart.com/category/chinese-internet-explained/> > > > 13 responses so far ↓ > > * > > 1 > <http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-142> > *John <http://www.sinosplice.com/life/> * // May 26, 2008 at 7:53 pm > > It is an interesting question. You’re right that you aren’t the > first to notice this, but given the keywords involved, it’s a bit > problematic to search for the topic. Here are a few other > commentaries: > > http://www.churbuck.com/wordpress/?p=540 > > http://reganmian.net/blog/2007/09/30/website-design-in-china/ > > http://www.virtual-china.org/2006/03/30/aesthetics-of-abundance/ > > * > > 2 > <http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-148> > *Florian Pihs <http://longmarch.chinalytics.com> * // May 27, 2008 > at 12:17 am > > Thanks Melcher. Interesting post. I have asked myself the same > questions hundreds of times. While we see Chinese users engage > with websites differently that their western counterparts, basic > web design principles remain intact (but are largely ignored by > most local sites) e.g. there is no engagement after the 3rd > screen, but pages are still 5-6 screens long. Blame it on Sina or > the lack of usability research. > > * > > 3 > <http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-155> > *Fons Tuinstra <http://www.chinaherald.net> * // May 27, 2008 at > 4:45 am > > I think you are touching here on a key discussion: it is about > what your readers want, how to they absorb their information and > what is the best way to get a message across. > I do not have a clear answer, but I had some weeks ago an > interesting discussion with the chief-editor of the website of the > largest broadsheet in Poland: > http://witeam.blogspot.com/2008/04/observation-scrolling-no-longer-problem.html > They had done some research, eye-tracking stuff, and discovered > that some of the standard assumption on how people read a website > had change over the years. Scrolling (a nono in traditional > webdesign) did not seem to be a problem and people did not read > anymore from the top-left corner downwards. > Our unproven assumption was then that this might be a generational > transition where an increasing number of readers did not have been > conditioned to read traditional newspapers anymore, but were open > for different ways of reading. > In China, where internet users are relative young and mostly not > trained (old) newspaper readers the old way of conditioning > reading habits might never have had a root to start with. > > * > > 4 > <http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-156> > *tmelcher * // May 27, 2008 at 5:58 am > > Thanks very much for these great comments, and links to articles > on the same subject. I’d love to find more people interested in > this subject! > > * > > 5 > <http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-157> > *Paul Denlinger <http://www.chinavortex.com> * // May 27, 2008 at > 8:51 am > > Here is my guess. > I think that Sina, Sohu and Netease still have to accomodate many > new users, and they are not comfortable clicking through to new > pages or inputting Chinese into search boxes. Instead, they prefer > to click directly on text links of what they want to read. This > forces as much content as possible up to the top-level of the > major websites. > >From an aesthetics point of view, it is not pretty. But it works > in China. > > * > > 6 > <http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-158> > *Kaiser Kuo <http://digitalwatch.ogilvy.com.cn/en> * // May 27, > 2008 at 9:04 am > > When I was editor-in-chief of a site here in China back in 1999, I > hired a Danish Web designer who built what I thought was a nice, > clean, elegant interface–which, of course, elicited confused > “where’s the content?” from our Chinese staff. Eric Rosenblum, who > was COO of the company, was initially with me on the design issue, > having a preference for clean. But then a friend of his > straightened him out. “Look at the Chinese retail experience,” > Eric relayed to me. “Chinese shoppers want abundance, things > falling off the shells and piled up in the aisles. It makes it > feel like there’s a sale on.” He suggested that this experience > preference translates well onto the web as well. He may be right! > Anyway, a heat mapping study would be great. I have a hunch — > totally unsupported, of course — that when native readers of > Chinese take in text, it’s in a very different way than English > readers do, and there’s simply more tolerance for what English > readers see as clutter. > > * > > 7 > <http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-159> > *Thijs * // May 27, 2008 at 9:36 am > > I’ve looked into this only on the surface level; and if you look > at pageview time, the chinese websites have much higher values. > I’ve also seen some heatmapping done before and people have issues > “finding” information, which may contribute to the viewing time. > Whether or not this leads to a more “pleasing” experience, I would > not be able to say. I think part of it is just, what people are > used to (habits) and not what would be the best design. > > * > > 8 > <http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-162> > *Gemme <http://www.chinasnippets.com> * // May 27, 2008 at 10:27 am > > A user behavior study would indeed be great. Like many other > commenters I have struggled with the concept behind all the > cluttered pages. Especially in cases that I had to advice clients > on this. Do we go Chinese or do we go Western. > > My take is that it will depend on the kind of website what will be > the best. Is it information, is it e-commerce, is it entertainment > or else. My hunch is it that it will also change over time. > > One reason, like you mentioned, would be that the dated > “advertising per day” model (no incentive to change as a longer > page can carry more ads) will be replaced with more mature models > that actually convert. > Another reason would be the evolvement of design, there’s aready a > lot of the so called web 2.0 design happening. > > I asked a company that actually does user behavior and eye > tracking testing but for now their Chinese office doesn’ do this > yet as it’s very expensive and clients are’nt yet at the stage > that they see the benefit. > > I only know of one Chinese eyetracking study but this once was > focused on the difference of behavior on Baidu and Google, see > http://www.enquiroresearch.com/chinese-search-engine-engagement.aspx . > Very intersting but unfortunately the Baidu and Google homepages > have a rather clean lay out so they may not help too much here. > > * > > 9 > <http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-166> > *Paul Denlinger <http://www.chinavortex.com> * // May 27, 2008 at > 12:29 pm > > It would be interesting to study how eye-tracking behavior works > differently in east and west. If you look at magazine layouts in > Taiwan, Japan and Korea, you will see the same in your face > cluttered layouts. > > * > > 10 > <http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-167> > *cerebus <http://aityt.blogspot.com> * // May 27, 2008 at 12:40 pm > > I’ve always wondered why Chinese websites always open links in a > new window (unless you specify tabs in your browser). My theory is > that one reason for the clutter is that there isn’t a culture of > consumer complaints in China: no proper feedback mechanism. So > although people might find it annoying, they’ll be hard-pressed to > actually complain. It always seems to me Chinese websites just > aren’t considerate, and want to take over your whole screen and > browser with floating flash ads and pop-ups. TV does the same: > it’s not uncommon to see the same ad three or four times in a row. > I don’t think arguments about Chinese consumer expectations hold > water: more likely Chinese advertiser expectations are to blame. > The old story: you only need to sell something once to every > Chinese person and you’ll be a millionaire. Who cares if some > people are annoyed? They’re not going to complain anyway. > > (Please don’t attack the obvious generalizations in this opinion. > Rather address the questions. I thank you in advance.) > > * > > 11 > <http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-173> > *tmelcher * // May 27, 2008 at 1:58 pm > > Cerebus, > > Thanks for the comment. Too bad your blog is blocked from Beijing! > > I don’t quite agree about the culture of no consumer complaints > here. I hear Chinese colleagues bitching about consumer > experiences all the time, and the BBSes are full of horror > stories. And lately more companies seem to be taking notice. > > Based on talking with Chinese friends, it seems they really do > prefer highly-dense presentation. Other posters here have called > it a “theory of abundance”, which is an interesting metaphor. > > Bottom line is that I don’t know. But I’ve seen too many foreign > web companies come to China and make mistakes from day one by > assuming “good web design” is global… > > Thanks again! > > * > > 12 > <http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-174> > *Robert Ness <http://www.jobdou.com> * // May 27, 2008 at 2:02 pm > > I think you are right on the money with the advertising argument. > It all comes down to a sales person saying–”your ad gets on the > front page of Sina”. > > Let’s not forget about the simple power of doing things the way > people have been doing it before you. Sina was one of the first > big internet successes in China, so most new websites aren’t going > to question the wisdom of their UI design. And when your a media > buyer who is accountable to a boss, which is easier to say if > things don’t go well, “I placed the ad on the front page of Sina!” > or “I placed the ad on an archived page that gets high page views > from search engine users searching for relevant keywords!” > > Let’s avoid the trap of explaining things with culture instead of > explicit motivations. > > * > > 13 > <http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/#comment-178> > *tmelcher * // May 27, 2008 at 2:28 pm > > Robert, > > I love what you wrote: “avoid the trap of explaining things with > culture instead of explicit motivations”. sounds like the inside > of a fortune cookie. Seriously. I’ve also thought that basic > motivations (such as makin’ money) usually trump more-subtle ones… > > > -- > 夏清然 > Xia Qingran > qingran在zeuux.org > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > zeuux-universe mailing list > zeuux-universe在zeuux.org > http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe > > ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society! > http://www.zeuux.org
2008年05月27日 星期二 16:15
2008/5/27 Harry Li <harryl.byread at gmail.com>: > 网页价值观差异,没有什么问题。他口中的crap在我们眼中并不是crap,就这么简单。他要是看到QQ的用户行为的话,肯定会疯掉的~~ 价值观是个人的取向, 如新浪这般实属强奸网民。
2008年05月27日 星期二 16:17
On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 03:34:05PM +0800, Harry Li wrote: > 网页价值观差异,没有什么问题。他口中的crap在我们眼中并不是crap,就这么简单。他要是看到QQ的用户行为的话,肯定会疯掉的~~ 我觉得确实都是 crap... > 2008/5/27 Julien GONG Min (Gmail) <julien.gong在gmail.com>: > > 用CT的标准去衡量Yahoo,信息量还是不够丰富。我觉得这个问题并不是很重要,反正我自己都不看新浪的首页-。- > > 需要的人会看的,而且这种人在中国很多很多…… > > > > On 5/27/08, Xia Qingran <qingran在zeuux.org> wrote: > >> > >> 原文见: > >> > >> http://www.melcherruwart.com/2008/05/26/why-do-most-chinese-sites-look-like-crap/ > >> > >> > >> Why do most Chinese sites look like crap? > >> > >> May 26th, 2008 · 13 Comments > >> > >> [I wish this post contained all sorts of "a-ha!" insights. Instead, I hope > >> it simply frames some questions that I find interesting]. > >> > >> Whenever I show Chinese websites to American friends who don't speak > >> Chinese, the friends universally have the same reaction — "Wow! That site > >> sure is crappy-looking! Guess those guys haven't learned how to design a > >> good website yet, huh?" > >> > >> I made the same mistake myself when I moved to Beijing 4 years ago, fresh > >> from the "cutting-edge" of web design in the Bay Area. "Surely," I thought, > >> "my superior design sensibility is a key ingredient to why I'll be > >> successful building B2C websites in China!" > >> > >> Boy, was I wrong. > >> > >> In case you don't know what I'm talking about, look at the home page of > >> China's most-popular website (all of these screen shots are a bit old, but > >> things haven't changed much). You can click on the image to see it in > >> detail. > >> > >> Above is the home page of Sina.com, showing just what you can see "above > >> the fold" (in other words, without scrolling down). > >> > >> Now, here's the above-the-fold home page of my favorite American news > >> site: > >> > >> For those of you who might argue that Sina is a "portal" and not really a > >> news site, here's the above-the-fold home page of most popular portal site > >> in the US: > >> > >> In addition to preferring higher information density per square inch, > >> Chinese readers also seem to prefer higher density per page view. Once > >> again, here's the home page of Yahoo, showing the entire home page. > >> > >> Here's the full-length home page of Sina.com, from the same day: > >> > >> In case my point isn't clear, below I've placed the full-length web pages > >> of the three sites side-by-side, to scale: > >> > >> Most Americans are by now nodding their heads: "Yep. Love those US sites. > >> Much more advanced. Clean, simple design. Not cluttered. Guess those Chinese > >> guys will figure that out sooner or later." > >> > >> What's fascinating is that my Chinese friends have a very different take > >> on the US sites: "They look skimpy, and empty. Where's all the content?? The > >> home page is just navigation." > >> > >> After talking about this issue with many friends, it appears that Chinese > >> and American (I won't say "Western" since I don't know much about Europeans) > >> look at/read websites in very different ways. [To forestall critics, when I > >> say "Americans" I mean native English speakers and readers who live in > >> America, even though there are obviously many Americans who don't speak > >> English natively]. > >> > >> While it's clear that both peoples "scan," and then only sometimes "read", > >> the way they scan is very different. Chinese people strongly prefer a > >> density that is far beyond what most Americans can tolerate. In addition, > >> Chinese people seem to be scanning for keywords (or more precisely > >> "key-characters"), while Americans like to read "headlines" (aka short pithy > >> phrases) and look at arresting photos. > >> > >> So here's my question: "Do Chinese online users and American online users > >> scan/read web pages differently? if so, why? What does that mean for online > >> business?" > >> > >> It turns out that no one seems to know the answer. I asked Jakob Nielsen, > >> the famous web usability expert, if he knew of any research on this topic. > >> His simple answer: "No." He suggested I attend his upcoming usability > >> workshop, which looks cool but is (a) beyond my price point and (b) > >> potentially not relevant for the Chinese market (which is the whole point of > >> this post). > >> > >> I can't find anyone, anywhere, who is researching this question. If you > >> know someone, please let me know. > >> > >> I would LOVE to have someone do real research into this issue, using the > >> latest eye-tracking technology. I might even have (gasp!) a shoestring > >> budget to fund this. I've approached a friend at the Chinese Central Arts > >> University, but they don't have the technology. Any takers?? > >> > >> In the meantime, some of my own thoughts on this issue. > >> > >> First, I decided to compare newspaper front pages in China and the US. i > >> figured that this comparison would yield the same enormous differences in > >> information density. I remembered that Chinese newspapers from years ago > >> were really dense visually. Much to my surprise, though, there are no longer > >> vast differences between the layout and visual density of the top Beijing > >> newspapers and English-language newspapers in New York. > >> > >> I found this fascinating. Why are the designs of the front pages of the > >> major daily newspapers converging, while the website home pages are not? > >> Does this mean that Chinese newspapers are more, or less, in touch with how > >> their readers want to read? > >> > >> Then I started to think about what might explain the differences online, > >> since they seem to exist only there. Said another way, are there unique > >> "online" circumstances in China that might be influencing home page design? > >> > >> I think the answer is yes. > >> > >> In the US, online advertising is (mostly) sold by "page view". For > >> example, an advertiser buys a certain amount of page views over time. In > >> China, most online advertising is still sold by time-period, as in "buy an > >> ad on the home page for one month." > >> > >> As I thought it through, I realized that these different pricing > >> methodologies created different incentives. In the US, you want "more page > >> views per visit", because that's how you create advertising inventory. In > >> China, you create more advertising inventory by making your home page > >> longer. > >> > >> Is this the explanation?? If so, does this mean that when (if?) China > >> moves to a per-impression model, home pages will get shorter and less dense? > >> Or has the online audience in China become accustomed to super-high density? > >> If so, then how come newspapers are no longer as dense as they were? > >> > >> By now I hope you're starting to find these questions as interesting as I > >> find them. I'd love to hear what you think! > >> > >> Tags: Chinese internet explained > >> > >> 13 responses so far ↓ > >> > >> 1 John // May 26, 2008 at 7:53 pm > >> > >> It is an interesting question. You're right that you aren't the first to > >> notice this, but given the keywords involved, it's a bit problematic to > >> search for the topic. Here are a few other commentaries: > >> > >> http://www.churbuck.com/wordpress/?p=540 > >> > >> http://reganmian.net/blog/2007/09/30/website-design-in-china/ > >> > >> http://www.virtual-china.org/2006/03/30/aesthetics-of-abundance/ > >> > >> 2 Florian Pihs // May 27, 2008 at 12:17 am > >> > >> Thanks Melcher. Interesting post. I have asked myself the same questions > >> hundreds of times. While we see Chinese users engage with websites > >> differently that their western counterparts, basic web design principles > >> remain intact (but are largely ignored by most local sites) e.g. there is no > >> engagement after the 3rd screen, but pages are still 5-6 screens long. Blame > >> it on Sina or the lack of usability research. > >> > >> 3 Fons Tuinstra // May 27, 2008 at 4:45 am > >> > >> I think you are touching here on a key discussion: it is about what your > >> readers want, how to they absorb their information and what is the best way > >> to get a message across. > >> I do not have a clear answer, but I had some weeks ago an interesting > >> discussion with the chief-editor of the website of the largest broadsheet in > >> Poland: > >> > >> http://witeam.blogspot.com/2008/04/observation-scrolling-no-longer-problem.html > >> They had done some research, eye-tracking stuff, and discovered that some > >> of the standard assumption on how people read a website had change over the > >> years. Scrolling (a nono in traditional webdesign) did not seem to be a > >> problem and people did not read anymore from the top-left corner downwards. > >> Our unproven assumption was then that this might be a generational > >> transition where an increasing number of readers did not have been > >> conditioned to read traditional newspapers anymore, but were open for > >> different ways of reading. > >> In China, where internet users are relative young and mostly not trained > >> (old) newspaper readers the old way of conditioning reading habits might > >> never have had a root to start with. > >> > >> 4 tmelcher // May 27, 2008 at 5:58 am > >> > >> Thanks very much for these great comments, and links to articles on the > >> same subject. I'd love to find more people interested in this subject! > >> > >> 5 Paul Denlinger // May 27, 2008 at 8:51 am > >> > >> Here is my guess. > >> I think that Sina, Sohu and Netease still have to accomodate many new > >> users, and they are not comfortable clicking through to new pages or > >> inputting Chinese into search boxes. Instead, they prefer to click directly > >> on text links of what they want to read. This forces as much content as > >> possible up to the top-level of the major websites. > >> >From an aesthetics point of view, it is not pretty. But it works in > >> China. > >> > >> 6 Kaiser Kuo // May 27, 2008 at 9:04 am > >> > >> When I was editor-in-chief of a site here in China back in 1999, I hired a > >> Danish Web designer who built what I thought was a nice, clean, elegant > >> interface–which, of course, elicited confused "where's the content?" from > >> our Chinese staff. Eric Rosenblum, who was COO of the company, was initially > >> with me on the design issue, having a preference for clean. But then a > >> friend of his straightened him out. "Look at the Chinese retail experience," > >> Eric relayed to me. "Chinese shoppers want abundance, things falling off the > >> shells and piled up in the aisles. It makes it feel like there's a sale on." > >> He suggested that this experience preference translates well onto the web as > >> well. He may be right! Anyway, a heat mapping study would be great. I have a > >> hunch — totally unsupported, of course — that when native readers of Chinese > >> take in text, it's in a very different way than English readers do, and > >> there's simply more tolerance for what English readers see as clutter. > >> > >> 7 Thijs // May 27, 2008 at 9:36 am > >> > >> I've looked into this only on the surface level; and if you look at > >> pageview time, the chinese websites have much higher values. I've also seen > >> some heatmapping done before and people have issues "finding" information, > >> which may contribute to the viewing time. Whether or not this leads to a > >> more "pleasing" experience, I would not be able to say. I think part of it > >> is just, what people are used to (habits) and not what would be the best > >> design. > >> > >> 8 Gemme // May 27, 2008 at 10:27 am > >> > >> A user behavior study would indeed be great. Like many other commenters I > >> have struggled with the concept behind all the cluttered pages. Especially > >> in cases that I had to advice clients on this. Do we go Chinese or do we go > >> Western. > >> > >> My take is that it will depend on the kind of website what will be the > >> best. Is it information, is it e-commerce, is it entertainment or else. My > >> hunch is it that it will also change over time. > >> > >> One reason, like you mentioned, would be that the dated "advertising per > >> day" model (no incentive to change as a longer page can carry more ads) will > >> be replaced with more mature models that actually convert. > >> Another reason would be the evolvement of design, there's aready a lot of > >> the so called web 2.0 design happening. > >> > >> I asked a company that actually does user behavior and eye tracking > >> testing but for now their Chinese office doesn' do this yet as it's very > >> expensive and clients are'nt yet at the stage that they see the benefit. > >> > >> I only know of one Chinese eyetracking study but this once was focused on > >> the difference of behavior on Baidu and Google, see > >> http://www.enquiroresearch.com/chinese-search-engine-engagement.aspx . > >> Very intersting but unfortunately the Baidu and Google homepages have a > >> rather clean lay out so they may not help too much here. > >> > >> 9 Paul Denlinger // May 27, 2008 at 12:29 pm > >> > >> It would be interesting to study how eye-tracking behavior works > >> differently in east and west. If you look at magazine layouts in Taiwan, > >> Japan and Korea, you will see the same in your face cluttered layouts. > >> > >> 10 cerebus // May 27, 2008 at 12:40 pm > >> > >> I've always wondered why Chinese websites always open links in a new > >> window (unless you specify tabs in your browser). My theory is that one > >> reason for the clutter is that there isn't a culture of consumer complaints > >> in China: no proper feedback mechanism. So although people might find it > >> annoying, they'll be hard-pressed to actually complain. It always seems to > >> me Chinese websites just aren't considerate, and want to take over your > >> whole screen and browser with floating flash ads and pop-ups. TV does the > >> same: it's not uncommon to see the same ad three or four times in a row. I > >> don't think arguments about Chinese consumer expectations hold water: more > >> likely Chinese advertiser expectations are to blame. The old story: you only > >> need to sell something once to every Chinese person and you'll be a > >> millionaire. Who cares if some people are annoyed? They're not going to > >> complain anyway. > >> > >> (Please don't attack the obvious generalizations in this opinion. Rather > >> address the questions. I thank you in advance.) > >> > >> 11 tmelcher // May 27, 2008 at 1:58 pm > >> > >> Cerebus, > >> > >> Thanks for the comment. Too bad your blog is blocked from Beijing! > >> > >> I don't quite agree about the culture of no consumer complaints here. I > >> hear Chinese colleagues bitching about consumer experiences all the time, > >> and the BBSes are full of horror stories. And lately more companies seem to > >> be taking notice. > >> > >> Based on talking with Chinese friends, it seems they really do prefer > >> highly-dense presentation. Other posters here have called it a "theory of > >> abundance", which is an interesting metaphor. > >> > >> Bottom line is that I don't know. But I've seen too many foreign web > >> companies come to China and make mistakes from day one by assuming "good web > >> design" is global… > >> > >> Thanks again! > >> > >> 12 Robert Ness // May 27, 2008 at 2:02 pm > >> > >> I think you are right on the money with the advertising argument. It all > >> comes down to a sales person saying–"your ad gets on the front page of > >> Sina". > >> > >> Let's not forget about the simple power of doing things the way people > >> have been doing it before you. Sina was one of the first big internet > >> successes in China, so most new websites aren't going to question the wisdom > >> of their UI design. And when your a media buyer who is accountable to a > >> boss, which is easier to say if things don't go well, "I placed the ad on > >> the front page of Sina!" or "I placed the ad on an archived page that gets > >> high page views from search engine users searching for relevant keywords!" > >> > >> Let's avoid the trap of explaining things with culture instead of explicit > >> motivations. > >> > >> 13 tmelcher // May 27, 2008 at 2:28 pm > >> > >> Robert, > >> > >> I love what you wrote: "avoid the trap of explaining things with culture > >> instead of explicit motivations". sounds like the inside of a fortune > >> cookie. Seriously. I've also thought that basic motivations (such as makin' > >> money) usually trump more-subtle ones… > >> > >> -- > >> 夏清然 > >> Xia Qingran > >> qingran在zeuux.org > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> zeuux-universe mailing list > >> zeuux-universe在zeuux.org > >> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe > >> > >> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society! > >> http://www.zeuux.org > > > > > > > > -- > > Julien, GONG Min > > clie.com.cn/blog > > > > Google Talk: Julien.Gong在gmail.com > > MSN: gongmin在x263.net > > Sina UC: 103327 > > Tel: +8610 6267 5933 > > _______________________________________________ > > zeuux-universe mailing list > > zeuux-universe在zeuux.org > > http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe > > > > ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society! > > http://www.zeuux.org > > > > > > -- > Best Regards > Harry Li > _______________________________________________ > zeuux-universe mailing list > zeuux-universe在zeuux.org > http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe > > ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society! > http://www.zeuux.org -- There is no emotion; there is peace. There is no ignorance; there is knowledge. There is no passion; there is serenity. There is no death; there is the Force. -------------- 下一部分 -------------- 一个非文本附件被清除... 发信人: %(who)s 主题: %(subject)s 日期: %(date)s 大小: 197 Url: http://www.zeuux.org/pipermail/zeuux-universe/attachments/20080527/5369a985/attachment.bin
2008年05月27日 星期二 16:22
2008/5/27 Zhengpeng Hou <zhengpeng.hou在gmail.com>: > 2008/5/27 Harry Li <harryl.byread在gmail.com>: >> 网页价值观差异,没有什么问题。他口中的crap在我们眼中并不是crap,就这么简单。他要是看到QQ的用户行为的话,肯定会疯掉的~~ > 价值观是个人的取向, 如新浪这般实属强奸网民。 经济原因,你们知道 SINA 的首页广告是怎么报价的就知道首页为什么恨不能几十翻了! 要不是单页数据量太大,已经令IE招不住了, SINA 有信心和气势将首页整成几百米长的! > _______________________________________________ > zeuux-universe mailing list > zeuux-universe在zeuux.org > http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe > > ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society! > http://www.zeuux.org -- '''过程改进乃是催生可促生靠谱的人的组织! PE keeps evolving organizations which promoting people be good! '''http://zoomquiet.org Pls. usage OOo to replace M$ Office. http://zh.openoffice.org Pls. usage 7-zip to replace WinRAR/WinZip. http://7-zip.org You can get the truely Freedom 4 software.
2008年05月27日 星期二 16:48
2008/5/27 Zoom. Quiet <zoom.quiet at gmail.com>: > 2008/5/27 Zhengpeng Hou <zhengpeng.hou at gmail.com>: >> 2008/5/27 Harry Li <harryl.byread at gmail.com>: >>> 网页价值观差异,没有什么问题。他口中的crap在我们眼中并不是crap,就这么简单。他要是看到QQ的用户行为的话,肯定会疯掉的~~ >> 价值观是个人的取向, 如新浪这般实属强奸网民。 > 经济原因,你们知道 SINA 的首页广告是怎么报价的就知道首页为什么恨不能几十翻了! > 要不是单页数据量太大,已经令IE招不住了, > SINA 有信心和气势将首页整成几百米长的! 君子爱财,要取之有道。 BTW: 想来这里有不少人工作于sina, 不如先建议建议你们的东家好好规范一下自家的网页 :P 似乎比那银行的行动意义更大
2008年05月27日 星期二 17:12
On Tue, May 27, 2008 at 04:48:58PM +0800, Zhengpeng Hou wrote: > 2008/5/27 Zoom. Quiet <zoom.quiet在gmail.com>: > > 2008/5/27 Zhengpeng Hou <zhengpeng.hou在gmail.com>: > >> 2008/5/27 Harry Li <harryl.byread在gmail.com>: > >>> 网页价值观差异,没有什么问题。他口中的crap在我们眼中并不是crap,就这么简单。他要是看到QQ的用户行为的话,肯定会疯掉的~~ > >> 价值观是个人的取向, 如新浪这般实属强奸网民。 > > 经济原因,你们知道 SINA 的首页广告是怎么报价的就知道首页为什么恨不能几十翻了! > > 要不是单页数据量太大,已经令IE招不住了, > > SINA 有信心和气势将首页整成几百米长的! > 君子爱财,要取之有道。 > BTW: 想来这里有不少人工作于sina, 不如先建议建议你们的东家好好规范一下自家的网页 :P 似乎比那银行的行动意义更大 很多中国一般网民都从来不去国外的网站,可能都不着都正常的网页是什么样的... 要是下电驴的还好,见过 verycd.com。 > _______________________________________________ > zeuux-universe mailing list > zeuux-universe在zeuux.org > http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe > > ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society! > http://www.zeuux.org -- There is no emotion; there is peace. There is no ignorance; there is knowledge. There is no passion; there is serenity. There is no death; there is the Force. -------------- 下一部分 -------------- 一个非文本附件被清除... 发信人: %(who)s 主题: %(subject)s 日期: %(date)s 大小: 197 Url: http://www.zeuux.org/pipermail/zeuux-universe/attachments/20080527/f7e9bfb9/attachment.bin
2008年05月27日 星期二 17:15
但是再怎么长,也要遵循经济规律。如果数百米长,那排在后面还是和第二click的页面有一比的。买家卖家都不傻~~ 2008/5/27 Zoom. Quiet <zoom.quiet at gmail.com>: > 2008/5/27 Zhengpeng Hou <zhengpeng.hou at gmail.com>: >> 2008/5/27 Harry Li <harryl.byread at gmail.com>: >>> 网页价值观差异,没有什么问题。他口中的crap在我们眼中并不是crap,就这么简单。他要是看到QQ的用户行为的话,肯定会疯掉的~~ >> 价值观是个人的取向, 如新浪这般实属强奸网民。 > 经济原因,你们知道 SINA 的首页广告是怎么报价的就知道首页为什么恨不能几十翻了! > 要不是单页数据量太大,已经令IE招不住了, > SINA 有信心和气势将首页整成几百米长的! > >> _______________________________________________ >> zeuux-universe mailing list >> zeuux-universe at zeuux.org >> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe >> >> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society! >> http://www.zeuux.org > > > > -- > '''过程改进乃是催生可促生靠谱的人的组织! > PE keeps evolving organizations which promoting people be good! > '''http://zoomquiet.org > Pls. usage OOo to replace M$ Office. http://zh.openoffice.org > Pls. usage 7-zip to replace WinRAR/WinZip. http://7-zip.org > You can get the truely Freedom 4 software. > _______________________________________________ > zeuux-universe mailing list > zeuux-universe at zeuux.org > http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe > > ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society! > http://www.zeuux.org -- Best Regards Harry Li
2008年05月27日 星期二 19:24
ͳһ¸Ã¹Ûµã¡£ ÔÚ 2008-5-27£¬ÏÂÎç5:22£¬ Zoom.Quiet дµÀ£º > 2008/5/27 Zhengpeng Hou <zhengpeng.hou在gmail.com>: >> 2008/5/27 Harry Li <harryl.byread在gmail.com>: >>> ÍøÒ³¼ÛÖµ¹Û²îÒ죬ûÓÐʲôÎÊÌâ¡£Ëû¿ÚÖеÄcrapÔÚÎÒÃÇÑÛÖÐ >>> ²¢²»ÊÇcrap£¬¾ÍÕâô¼òµ¥¡£ËûÒªÊÇ¿´µ½QQµÄÓû§ÐÐΪµÄ»°£¬¿Ï¶¨»á·èµôµÄ~~ >> ¼ÛÖµ¹ÛÊǸöÈ˵ÄÈ¡Ïò£¬ ÈçÐÂÀËÕâ°ãʵÊôÇ¿¼éÍøÃñ¡£ > ¾¼ÃÔÒò,ÄãÃÇÖªµÀ SINA µÄÊ×Ò³¹ã¸æÊÇÔõô±¨¼ÛµÄ¾ÍÖªµÀÊ× > ҳΪʲôºÞ²»Äܼ¸Ê®·ÁË! > Òª²»Êǵ¥Ò³Êý¾ÝÁ¿Ì«´ó,ÒѾÁîIEÕв»×¡ÁË, > SINA ÓÐÐÅÐĺÍÆøÊƽ«Ê×Ò³Õû³É¼¸°ÙÃ׳¤µÄ! > >> _______________________________________________ >> zeuux-universe mailing list >> zeuux-universe在zeuux.org >> http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe >> >> ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society! >> http://www.zeuux.org > > > > -- > '''¹ý³Ì¸Ä½øÄËÊÇ´ßÉú¿É´ÙÉú¿¿Æ×µÄÈ˵Ä×éÖ¯! > PE keeps evolving organizations which promoting people be good! > '''http://zoomquiet.org > Pls. usage OOo to replace M$ Office. http://zh.openoffice.org > Pls. usage 7-zip to replace WinRAR/WinZip. http://7-zip.org > You can get the truely Freedom 4 software. > _______________________________________________ > zeuux-universe mailing list > zeuux-universe在zeuux.org > http://www.zeuux.org/mailman/listinfo/zeuux-universe > > ZEUUX Project - Free Software, Free Society! > http://www.zeuux.org -------------- 下一部分 -------------- Ò»¸öHTML¸½¼þ±»ÒƳý... URL: http://www.zeuux.org/pipermail/zeuux-universe/attachments/20080527/045ad1fb/attachment.html
2008年05月27日 星期二 21:59
看到这个信息顺便借题发挥,我的女朋友小俞是自由职业人,设计网页。她的设计 作品常常是很干净的,合于国标上的习惯。她是完全使用自由软件做设计的 (Gnome+Ubuntu+Gedit+Firefox/WebDeveloper+Opear+GIMP+gftp),所以希望大 家捧个场,如果有这种需求的介绍给她。 她的设计作品和业务介绍都在她的主页上: http://www.yuliansu.com
2008年05月27日 星期二 22:01
Zhang Weiwu wrote: > 看到这个信息顺便借题发挥,我的女朋友小俞是自由职业人,设计网页。她的设计 > 作品常常是很干净的,合于国标上的习惯。她是完全使用自由软件做设计的 > (Gnome+Ubuntu+Gedit+Firefox/WebDeveloper+Opear+GIMP+gftp),所以希望大 > 家捧个场,如果有这种需求的介绍给她。 > > 她的设计作品和业务介绍都在她的主页上: http://www.yuliansu.com > > 忘了说了她在北京,北京的业务优先。 小俞的作品案例: http://www.yuliansu.com/portfolio -- Real Softservice Huateng Tower, Unit 1788 Jia 302 3rd area of Jinsong, Chao Yang Tel: +86 (10) 8773 0650 ext 603 Mobile: 159 1111 7382 http://www.realss.com
2008年05月27日 星期二 22:35
2008/5/27 Zhang Weiwu <zhangweiwu at realss.com>: > > 看到这个信息顺便借题发挥,我的女朋友小俞是自由职业人,设计网页。她的设计 > 作品常常是很干净的,合于国标上的习惯。她是完全使用自由软件做设计的 > (Gnome+Ubuntu+Gedit+Firefox/WebDeveloper+Opear+GIMP+gftp),所以希望大 > 家捧个场,如果有这种需求的介绍给她。 Ubuntu默认就是gnome 建议也用konqueror和webkit的测试测试
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