本月的会课，刚好是五一长假！29~30 都要上班，会课就顺延到 5.1 或是 5.2 ?
刚好有 Debian 社区的友人介绍了韩国 open people 来交流，邮件转发附后，

那未基本主题先定为:
1. webpy.org 介绍 -- Kai Hendry
2. Python 的内存泄漏调试技巧 -- 小新(原Otter开发者之一)有关 OpenLDAP 接口应用过程中发掘出的内存泄漏问题，是如何一一调试确认出的？
3. Djangocn.org 的发展，新网摘系统？ -- Limodou
4. 啄木鸟维基改造，更加安全/有效/合理的汇集知识 -- ZoomQuiet

还有什么想分享的就提出来哪…………

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Kai Hendry <hendry at iki.fi>
Date: Apr 21, 2006 3:11 PM
Subject: Woodpecker
To: zoom.quiet at gmail.com
Cc: zhengpeng.hou at gmail.com

> Hou ZhengPeng told me I should get in contact with you python guys.
>
> I am a Debian maintainer who has worked quite a bit in the "free
> software" world. See my homepage:
> http://hendry.iki.fi/
>
> I maintain http://webpy.org/ for Debian, a python Web library. You might
> not like the code, but I like Aaron's style.
>
> I currently work in Korea, doing Linux type stuff.
>
> I am visiting Beijing (holiday) for the first time this Sunday (23rd)
> till the 3rd of May. I am alone and a bit nervous so it would be great
> to meet some locals.
>

...
Best wishes,


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RfJgh0ibBokJbR8ofPwXoVs=
=yYZO
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--
"""Time is unimportant, only life important!
blogging  :  http://blog.zoomquiet.org/pyblosxom/
wiki enter:   http://wiki.woodpecker.org.cn/moin/ZoomQuiet
in douban:  http://www.douban.com/people/zoomq/
"""

从web.py的网站找到的对django的评价,很对我的胃口 呵呵

Django seemed great from the outside: a nice-looking website, intelligent
and talented developers, and a seeming surplus of nice features. The
developers and community are extremely helpful and responsive to patches and
suggestions. And all the right goals are espoused in their philosophy
documents and FAQs. Unfortunately, however, they seem completely incapable
of living up to them.

While Django claims that it's "loosely coupled", using it pretty much
requires fitting your code into Django's worldview. Django insists on
executing your code itself, either through its command-line utility or a
specialized server handler called with the appropriate environment variables
and Python path. When you start a project, by default Django creates folders
nested four levels deep for your code and while you can move around some
files, I had trouble figuring out which ones and how.

Django's philosophy says "Explicit is better than implicit", but Django has
all sorts of magic. Database models you create in one file magically appear
someplace else deep inside the Django module with a different name. When
your model function is called, new things have been added to its
variable-space and old ones removed. (I'm told they're currently working on
fixing both of these, though.)

Another Django goal is "less code", at least for you. But Django is simply
full of code. Inside the django module are 10 different folders and inside
each of those are a few more. By the time you actually build a site in the
Django tutorial, you've imported django.core.meta, django.models.polls,
django.conf.urls.defaults.*, django.utils.httpwrappers.HttpResponse, and
django.core.extensions.render_to_response. It's not clear how anyone is
supposed to remember all that, especially since there appear to be no
guiding principles for what goes where or how it's named. Three of these are
inserted automatically by the start scripts, but you still need to memorize
such names for every other function you want to use.

But Django's most important problem is that its developers seem incapable of
designing a decent API. They're clearly capable Python programmers -- their
code uses all sorts of bizarre tricks. And they're clearly able to write
code that works -- they have all sorts of interesting features. But they
can't seem to shape this code into something that other people can use.

Their APIs are ugly and regularly missing key features: the database API
figures out queries by counting underscores but has no special syntax for
JOINs, the template system requires four curly braces around every variable
and can't do any sort of computation, the form API requires 15 lines to
process a form and can't automatically generate the template.

I tried my best to fix things -- and the Django community was extremely
supportive -- but the task simply dwarfed me. I just couldn't do it
mentally, let alone with the time constraints of having to actually build my
own application for my own startup.



2006/4/22, Zoom Quiet <zoom.quiet at gmail.com>:
>
> 本月的会课，刚好是五一长假！29~30 都要上班，会课就顺延到 5.1 或是 5.2 ?
> 刚好有 Debian 社区的友人介绍了韩国 open people 来交流，邮件转发附后，
>
> 那未基本主题先定为:
> 1. webpy.org 介绍 -- Kai Hendry
> 2. Python 的内存泄漏调试技巧 -- 小新(原Otter开发者之一)有关 OpenLDAP
> 接口应用过程中发掘出的内存泄漏问题，是如何一一调试确认出的？
> 3. Djangocn.org 的发展，新网摘系统？ -- Limodou
> 4. 啄木鸟维基改造，更加安全/有效/合理的汇集知识 -- ZoomQuiet
>
> 还有什么想分享的就提出来哪…………
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Kai Hendry <hendry at iki.fi>
> Date: Apr 21, 2006 3:11 PM
> Subject: Woodpecker
> To: zoom.quiet at gmail.com
> Cc: zhengpeng.hou at gmail.com
>
> > Hou ZhengPeng told me I should get in contact with you python guys.
> >
> > I am a Debian maintainer who has worked quite a bit in the "free
> > software" world. See my homepage:
> > http://hendry.iki.fi/
> >
> > I maintain http://webpy.org/ for Debian, a python Web library. You might
> > not like the code, but I like Aaron's style.
> >
> > I currently work in Korea, doing Linux type stuff.
> >
> > I am visiting Beijing (holiday) for the first time this Sunday (23rd)
> > till the 3rd of May. I am alone and a bit nervous so it would be great
> > to meet some locals.
> >
>
> ...
> Best wishes,
>
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux)
>
> iD8DBQFESIWgiRer6mQ5m+IRAhUTAJ4iT/UKQyIqgdYhFGhgEJXSYw1oCgCfQzez
> RfJgh0ibBokJbR8ofPwXoVs=
> =yYZO
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>
>
>
> --
> """Time is unimportant, only life important!
> blogging  :  http://blog.zoomquiet.org/pyblosxom/
> wiki enter:   http://wiki.woodpecker.org.cn/moin/ZoomQuiet
> in douban:  http://www.douban.com/people/zoomq/
> """
>
> _______________________________________________
> python-chinese
> Post: send python-chinese at lists.python.cn
> Subscribe: send subscribe to python-chinese-request at lists.python.cn
> Unsubscribe: send unsubscribe to  python-chinese-request at lists.python.cn
> Detail Info: http://python.cn/mailman/listinfo/python-chinese
>
>
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On 4/23/06, bird devdoer <devdoer at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> 从web.py的网站找到的对django的评价,很对我的胃口 呵呵
>
>
> Django seemed great from the outside: a nice-looking website, intelligent
> and talented developers, and a seeming surplus of nice features. The
> developers and community are extremely helpful and responsive to patches and
> suggestions. And all the right goals are espoused in their philosophy
> documents and FAQs. Unfortunately, however, they seem completely incapable
> of living up to them.
>
> While Django claims that it's "loosely coupled", using it pretty much
> requires fitting your code into Django's worldview. Django insists on
> executing your code itself, either through its command-line utility or a
> specialized server handler called with the appropriate environment variables
> and Python path. When you start a project, by default Django creates folders
> nested four levels deep for your code and while you can move around some
> files, I had trouble figuring out which ones and how.
>
> Django's philosophy says "Explicit is better than implicit", but Django has
> all sorts of magic. Database models you create in one file magically appear
> someplace else deep inside the Django module with a different name. When
> your model function is called, new things have been added to its
> variable-space and old ones removed. (I'm told they're currently working on
> fixing both of these, though.)
>
> Another Django goal is "less code", at least for you. But Django is simply
> full of code. Inside the django module are 10 different folders and inside
> each of those are a few more. By the time you actually build a site in the
> Django tutorial, you've imported django.core.meta, django.models.polls,
> django.conf.urls.defaults.*,
> django.utils.httpwrappers.HttpResponse, and
> django.core.extensions.render_to_response. It's not clear
> how anyone is supposed to remember all that, especially since there appear
> to be no guiding principles for what goes where or how it's named. Three of
> these are inserted automatically by the start scripts, but you still need to
> memorize such names for every other function you want to use.
>
哈哈哈！！是也乎！Django 非常象Python 版本的J2EE 意思了，虽然立意不错，
但是依托丰富框架的少量编码意味着让最终用户放弃对数据的理解，
我还是喜欢灵活的实用功能模块支持下的中量代码和快捷的实验式开发；


> But Django's most important problem is that its developers seem incapable of
> designing a decent API. They're clearly capable Python programmers -- their
> code uses all sorts of bizarre tricks. And they're clearly able to write
> code that works -- they have all sorts of interesting features. But they
> can't seem to shape this code into something that other people can use.
这个令Django 也有PHP 的遗憾了，各个版本间不兼容哪………………

>
> Their APIs are ugly and regularly missing key features: the database API
> figures out queries by counting underscores but has no special syntax for
> JOINs, the template system requires four curly braces around every variable
> and can't do any sort of computation, the form API requires 15 lines to
> process a form and can't automatically generate the template.
>
> I tried my best to fix things -- and the Django community was extremely
> supportive -- but the task simply dwarfed me. I just couldn't do it
> mentally, let alone with the time constraints of having to actually build my
> own application for my own startup.
>
>
> 2006/4/22, Zoom Quiet <zoom.quiet at gmail.com>:
> >
> 本月的会课，刚好是五一长假！29~30 都要上班，会课就顺延到 5.1 或是 5.2 ?
> 刚好有 Debian 社区的友人介绍了韩国 open people 来交流，邮件转发附后，
>
> 那未基本主题先定为:
> 1. webpy.org 介绍 -- Kai Hendry
> 2. Python 的内存泄漏调试技巧 -- 小新(原Otter开发者之一)有关 OpenLDAP
> 接口应用过程中发掘出的内存泄漏问题，是如何一一调试确认出的？
> 3. Djangocn.org 的发展，新网摘系统？ -- Limodou
> 4. 啄木鸟维基改造，更加安全/有效/合理的汇集知识 -- ZoomQuiet
>
> 还有什么想分享的就提出来哪…………
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Kai Hendry <hendry at iki.fi>
> Date: Apr 21, 2006 3:11 PM
> Subject: Woodpecker
> To: zoom.quiet at gmail.com
> Cc: zhengpeng.hou at gmail.com
>
> > Hou ZhengPeng told me I should get in contact with you python guys.
> >
> > I am a Debian maintainer who has worked quite a bit in the "free
> > software" world. See my homepage:
> > http://hendry.iki.fi/
> >
> > I maintain http://webpy.org/ for Debian, a python Web library. You might
> > not like the code, but I like Aaron's style.
> >
> > I currently work in Korea, doing Linux type stuff.
> >
> > I am visiting Beijing (holiday) for the first time this Sunday (23rd)
> > till the 3rd of May. I am alone and a bit nervous so it would be great
> > to meet some locals.
> >
>
> ...
> Best wishes,
>
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux)
>
> iD8DBQFESIWgiRer6mQ5m+IRAhUTAJ4iT/UKQyIqgdYhFGhgEJXSYw1oCgCfQzez
> RfJgh0ibBokJbR8ofPwXoVs=
> =yYZO
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>
>
>
> --
> """Time is unimportant, only life important!
> blogging  :  http://blog.zoomquiet.org/pyblosxom/
> wiki enter:   http://wiki.woodpecker.org.cn/moin/ZoomQuiet
> in douban:  http://www.douban.com/people/zoomq/
> """
>
> _______________________________________________
> python-chinese
> Post: send python-chinese at lists.python.cn
> Subscribe: send subscribe to
> python-chinese-request at lists.python.cn
> Unsubscribe: send unsubscribe to
> python-chinese-request at lists.python.cn
> Detail Info:
> http://python.cn/mailman/listinfo/python-chinese
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> python-chinese
> Post: send python-chinese at lists.python.cn
> Subscribe: send subscribe to
> python-chinese-request at lists.python.cn
> Unsubscribe: send unsubscribe to
> python-chinese-request at lists.python.cn
> Detail Info:
> http://python.cn/mailman/listinfo/python-chinese
>
>


--
"""Time is unimportant, only life important!
blogging  :  http://blog.zoomquiet.org/pyblosxom/
wiki enter:   http://wiki.woodpecker.org.cn/moin/ZoomQuiet
in douban:  http://www.douban.com/people/zoomq/
"""

On 4/23/06, bird devdoer <devdoer at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> 从web.py的网站找到的对django的评价,很对我的胃口 呵呵
>
>
> Django seemed great from the outside: a nice-looking website, intelligent
> and talented developers, and a seeming surplus of nice features. The
> developers and community are extremely helpful and responsive to patches and
> suggestions. And all the right goals are espoused in their philosophy
> documents and FAQs. Unfortunately, however, they seem completely incapable
> of living up to them.
>
> While Django claims that it's "loosely coupled", using it pretty much
> requires fitting your code into Django's worldview. Django insists on
> executing your code itself, either through its command-line utility or a
> specialized server handler called with the appropriate environment variables
> and Python path. When you start a project, by default Django creates folders
> nested four levels deep for your code and while you can move around some
> files, I had trouble figuring out which ones and how.
>
> Django's philosophy says "Explicit is better than implicit", but Django has
> all sorts of magic. Database models you create in one file magically appear
> someplace else deep inside the Django module with a different name. When
> your model function is called, new things have been added to its
> variable-space and old ones removed. (I'm told they're currently working on
> fixing both of these, though.)
>
> Another Django goal is "less code", at least for you. But Django is simply
> full of code. Inside the django module are 10 different folders and inside
> each of those are a few more. By the time you actually build a site in the
> Django tutorial, you've imported django.core.meta, django.models.polls,
> django.conf.urls.defaults.*,
> django.utils.httpwrappers.HttpResponse, and
> django.core.extensions.render_to_response. It's not clear
> how anyone is supposed to remember all that, especially since there appear
> to be no guiding principles for what goes where or how it's named. Three of
> these are inserted automatically by the start scripts, but you still need to
> memorize such names for every other function you want to use.
>
> But Django's most important problem is that its developers seem incapable of
> designing a decent API. They're clearly capable Python programmers -- their
> code uses all sorts of bizarre tricks. And they're clearly able to write
> code that works -- they have all sorts of interesting features. But they
> can't seem to shape this code into something that other people can use.
>
> Their APIs are ugly and regularly missing key features: the database API
> figures out queries by counting underscores but has no special syntax for
> JOINs, the template system requires four curly braces around every variable
> and can't do any sort of computation, the form API requires 15 lines to
> process a form and can't automatically generate the template.
>
> I tried my best to fix things -- and the Django community was extremely
> supportive -- but the task simply dwarfed me. I just couldn't do it
> mentally, let alone with the time constraints of having to actually build my
> own application for my own startup.
>
是先有的django后有的web.py，而且web.py从django学了不少东西。

--
I like python!
My Blog: http://www.donews.net/limodou
My Django Site: http://www.djangocn.org
NewEdit Maillist: http://groups.google.com/group/NewEdit

On 4/23/06, Zoom. Quiet <zoom.quiet at gmail.com> wrote:
> 哈哈哈！！是也乎！Django 非常象Python 版本的J2EE 意思了，虽然立意不错，
> 但是依托丰富框架的少量编码意味着让最终用户放弃对数据的理解，
> 我还是喜欢灵活的实用功能模块支持下的中量代码和快捷的实验式开发；
>
不同的框架适合不同口味的人，就是一个人在不同的发展阶段也有不同的思考。django并没有让用户放弃对数据的理解，你仍然需要设计model。而这更符合面向对象的理解，而不是记一堆sql语句。其实许多框架也差不多，并不是django独有的。真正django的特色我认为就是url
dispatch和admin功能，再有django的模板算是一个。其它的与别人区别不大，只是细节上有不同。
>
> > But Django's most important problem is that its developers seem incapable of
> > designing a decent API. They're clearly capable Python programmers -- their
> > code uses all sorts of bizarre tricks. And they're clearly able to write
> > code that works -- they have all sorts of interesting features. But they
> > can't seem to shape this code into something that other people can use.
> 这个令Django 也有PHP 的遗憾了，各个版本间不兼容哪………………
>
软件在发展期这是必然。

--
I like python!
My Blog: http://www.donews.net/limodou
My Django Site: http://www.djangocn.org
NewEdit Maillist: http://groups.google.com/group/NewEdit